tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post1701617397311947275..comments2024-03-28T09:33:38.032-04:00Comments on ILLUSTRATION ART: A THING FOR SHOULDERSDavid Apatoffhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-73846057283344348262011-08-02T22:18:44.919-04:002011-08-02T22:18:44.919-04:00Love this post. Enoch Bolles once wrote in a lette...Love this post. Enoch Bolles once wrote in a letter that shoulders were his favorite 'part'. I'd thought it was hands until I read this and then I couldn't look at his paintings again the same way.Jack Rhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06003755708951409832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-28549639574365294132011-07-11T17:05:21.894-04:002011-07-11T17:05:21.894-04:00Well, it seems I have to study this part seriously...Well, it seems I have to study this part seriously...Li-Anhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10702501956172981776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-22092146355389913812011-07-11T16:52:06.925-04:002011-07-11T16:52:06.925-04:00Li-An, I agree with you that we seem to go through...Li-An, I agree with you that we seem to go through phases where cultures (and fashion designers and illustrators) accentuate different features on the human body, and shoulders did seem to have their day back in the era of the stylish "debutante slouch." However, when it comes to John LaGatta I have to side with Smurfswacker above, who describes LaGatta as "maestro of the firm derriere." LaGatta's women may have worn evening gowns that revealed bare shoulders, but for me there is no mistaking the true focus of his attention: tight female posteriors.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-64395557059648167352011-07-10T09:39:07.547-04:002011-07-10T09:39:07.547-04:00I really like paintings. And this paintings are tr...I really like paintings. And this paintings are treasure to me it really looks heaven. I wonder how much inspiration does is take to create this wonderful artworks.traditional sweetshttp://www.treetzsweets.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-10949594817275066712011-07-09T12:13:06.459-04:002011-07-09T12:13:06.459-04:00Raleigh is one of my favorite artist. But the &quo...Raleigh is one of my favorite artist. But the "shoulder and back" fetishism seems to be very common in the roaring 30's. Just have a look at LaGatta's, Leyendecker's or Patterson's work. I think it was "in the air".Li-Anhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10702501956172981776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-88183719156785926982011-07-09T08:28:34.720-04:002011-07-09T08:28:34.720-04:00Richard-- thanks for writing.
Antonio Araujo-- I ...Richard-- thanks for writing.<br /><br />Antonio Araujo-- I read your comment about making women laugh to my wife, to see if it would make her laugh. Fortunately, it did.<br /><br />Laurence John-- I feel exactly the same way. This rich variety of perspectives, and what it reveals about the nervous system of the person wielding the pencil, is a never ending source of inspiration and growth for me.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-48273364799446945702011-07-08T05:40:15.115-04:002011-07-08T05:40:15.115-04:00i love seeing how different artists exaggerate, st...i love seeing how different artists exaggerate, stylize and distort the human form until it excites their eye. anyone who draws knows that there are certain shapes that are just a pleasure to draw, and it's almost impossible to resist tweaking or re-moulding form.<br /> <br />the limitless ability of the drawn / painted image to exclude certain aspects of reality and highlight others is for me, almost the whole point of it.Laurence Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11988700485839219253noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-73447795352471381812011-07-07T17:26:44.644-04:002011-07-07T17:26:44.644-04:00>(...)rotating through personality, >sense o...>(...)rotating through personality, >sense of humor, intelligence or >other fine attributes but I'm sure >they were in there somewhere.<br /><br />What on earth are you talking about? What weird fetishes you have! :D<br /><br />You know how women say they want a man that makes them laugh? It is true! What they won't specify (but you may observe), is that once an real hunk enters the room they will laugh at whatever he says :)António Araújohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10477716038667816702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-1407786842638976002011-07-07T12:08:21.952-04:002011-07-07T12:08:21.952-04:00Wow, really enlightening, thanks a ton!Wow, really enlightening, thanks a ton!Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08249577762409684046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-28749088295827181312011-07-07T10:08:00.806-04:002011-07-07T10:08:00.806-04:00Al McLuckie-- I have to admit I was surprised that...Al McLuckie-- I have to admit I was surprised that Fritz Lang was responsible for Debra Paget's cobra dance. Perhaps the opportunity to direct Ms. Paget in that little costume was too much for even the most legendary director to resist. Anyway, thanks for adding her to my lexicon. As for the Boris Vallejo crucifixion-- I agree, that is an all time pinnacle of dumbnicity.<br /><br />Antonio Araujo-- you have certainly persuaded me on the El Greco / astigmatism point. I suppose I never really thought it through. (Apparently, neither did a lot of other people, because the legend has been around for a great many years.) <br /><br />I am also glad to hear that, after rotating through all of the possible attributes (shoulder blades, posteriors, breasts, etc.) you have finally found the perfect balance of the total person. Of course, I don't remember seeing anything about rotating through personality, sense of humor, intelligence or other fine attributes but I'm sure they were in there somewhere.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-10350301966868165422011-07-06T21:26:22.301-04:002011-07-06T21:26:22.301-04:00However, it is hard to know how strong such physio...However, it is hard to know how strong such physiological effects are compared to the psychological ones, and mere accidents of experience. Taking the example of your post, I used to be a shoulderblade freak myself ("oh how the spine of the shoulder blade shines under the sun!", "oh, wonders, I think I can feel the hint of your coracoid process!"), but, experience of all sorts made me first a posterior devoté of Frazetta proportions, and then, alas, what my ignorant younger self would have regarded as the bluntest of savages, a mamary gland worshiper. Like Picasso claimed, I started subtle and then it took me half my life to grow into a savage!! :D (Finally, in my present state, I achieved synthesis and an appreciation of the whole form, free from specific fetishes - or, as my gf would say, a pervert who can't see a skirt without finding something to like about its contents :p)<br /><br />The point being that at least in my case my obsessions (expressed -poorly, but devotedly- in my drawings) were not at all physiological but wholly dependent on what women I had collided with in my personal life, and how they had impressed me (you could guess who I was dating by how the physical aspect of my "imaginary" characters changed - a common thing with draughtsmen, I bet, and a terrible curse on those among them trying to keep an affair secret! :)). All of this is, of course, a cliché, a common experience among any who draw, and so, upon detecting any sort of obsessive tendency in an artist's work I would usually attribute it to such common causes as these rather than to some interesting and rare phisiological aberration - simply because, being rare, they should require proper evidence to merit consideration (Occam and all that). <br /><br />In the case of El Greco, we know all artists try to be original, and we know he knew something about mannerism, so if he has a striking original style that hints of mannerism, it is natural to attribute that to deliberate stylization and innovation rather than to some rare condition, unless the evidence is strong for the latter - no matter how much more exciting that thesis might be.<br /><br />Oh, and on the matter of the shoulders vs hips on Frazzetta's girls, your point is very good, that "disproportion" is indeed the hardest to find in real life.António Araújohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10477716038667816702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-43642424459880319132011-07-06T21:25:07.611-04:002011-07-06T21:25:07.611-04:00>... there may be a physical, >neurological ...>... there may be a physical, >neurological reason for the >perceptual preferences of some >artists. <br /><br />Granted. My objection went only so far as that one specific mechanism.<br /><br />>I am just not certain that all >visual or psychological >impairments are so finely >calibrated that they would return >the picture precisely to a state >of normalcy.<br /><br />Certainly not. Certain effects are not compensated at all (color blindness - or blindness itself, as an extreme example!), and in others there will be only a partial compensation. The compensation in El Greco's alleged mechanism works so precisely because it needs no precise matching of opposing effects - the one alleged effect opposes *itself*, hence it is automatically "calibrated".<br /><br />>Why couldn't you make your >painting even more elongated or >warm or busy (because you like >that effect and more is better)? <br /><br />Full agreement. We caricature what we find striking, and what we find striking is dependent in part on our physiology. So El Greco (again assuming for a moment his "condition"), living in a deformed optical world of tall objects, might tend to caricature and exagerate the "fact" that things in the world were so generally much taller than wider. That argument, of an indirect influence over his style, is not touched by my point, which merely states that he wouldn't be elongating things while unwittingly trying to draw them realisticaly. Hence the reason for his style would still be a deliberate act of creativity, even if *motivated* by physiology.<br />However, the other arguments we made regarding inconsistencies (the horizontal arms, etc) still defeat even that weaker proposition in El Greco's specific case- but your general point is both interesting and valid.António Araújohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10477716038667816702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-30956357057134842452011-07-05T14:18:09.789-04:002011-07-05T14:18:09.789-04:00From my inside sources , I know that when Debra po...From my inside sources , I know that when Debra posed for Frazetta for Catgirl , she had just come off a Krispy Kreame binge and that her hips at that time were indeed a little wider than her shoulders .<br /><br /> Glad you saw the cobra dance , the movie is not one of my favorite Langs , but her dancing is worth catching . <br /><br /> Hope sometime if you're in a frivolous mood , you might craft a post on Vallejo's crucifixion - it deserves one and the comments might be interesting .<br /><br /> AlAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-86610389525378055842011-07-05T12:43:13.383-04:002011-07-05T12:43:13.383-04:00Have you ever talked to a woman?
No. Great point...<i>Have you ever talked to a woman?</i><br /><br />No. Great point.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-35474990871827020492011-07-05T12:35:17.705-04:002011-07-05T12:35:17.705-04:00Etc, etc wrote: " Raleigh was well aware that...Etc, etc wrote: " Raleigh was well aware that women are more flexible than men" <br /><br />Have you ever talked to a woman?<br /><br /><br />"Personally I think Mannerism is the place to begin when attempting to understand El Greco, but there is still some kind of strange, disturbed eccentricity that goes beyond Mannerism in my opinion."<br /><br />I agree. There were a lot of improbably elongated figures painted by mannerist artists, but only El Greco took it so far, and mixed in enough other eccentric elements' that many people assumed he had an eye disorder. You didn't hear that about most mannerist painters.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-84851043290003439032011-07-05T08:49:07.143-04:002011-07-05T08:49:07.143-04:00Hegel-- Thanks for the Jennifer Love Hewitt clip. ...Hegel-- Thanks for the Jennifer Love Hewitt clip. Now that you have come back from the dead to contribute to this forum, perhaps you can answer a question that I have long wondered about: Would you have ever written the Phenomenology of the Spirit, or the Phenomenology of the Mind, if you'd had the option of spending your time looking at Jennifer Love Hewitt prancing around in her underwear?<br /><br />Antonio Araujo wrote: "David: I think, from what you wrote, you missed my point?"<br /><br />Quite possibly, although I was trying to concede your point. I certainly agree with your argument (and Jesse's) that horizontal elongation (from bent arms, etc.) tends to disprove astigmatisim as the explanation for El Greco's style. <br /><br />As for your related argument that El Greco's perception of his painting would be as exaggerated as his perception of reality, thereby restoring the picture to normalcy, I believe I understand your theory and I agree that it takes care of part of the problem. I am just not certain that all visual or psychological impairments are so finely calibrated that they would return the picture precisely to a state of normalcy.<br /><br />For example, if your eyes exaggerated long shapes, or warm colors, or busy details, because that's what titillated your retina (to use a highly unscientific explanation) I agree that you would also perceive your painting as more elongated or warm or busy than it "really" was, but I am not sure that nets out to normalcy. Why couldn't you make your painting even more elongated or warm or busy (because you like that effect and more is better)? If an anorexic looks in the mirror and sees herself as heavier than she really is, I suspect her self portrait is not likely to adjust and return a "normal" weight. <br /><br />I'm not saying that any of this happened with El Greco. I don't know his art, or ophthalmology, nearly well enough to begin to opine. All I am trying to do is preserve a placeholder for the possibility that there may be a physical, neurological reason for the perceptual preferences of some artists. <br /><br />Al McLuckie-- It won't surprise you to hear that I had no trouble finding Debra Paget's cobra dance on line. Apparently she has quite the fan club out there, and I understand why; she is not much of an actor but she is certainly a hottie. My only observation is that she does not conform to Frazetta's fantasy girl stereotype in that her shoulders are broader than her hips. Frazetta's imaginary girl tended to have frail shoulders (which did not hinder her ability to kill saber tooth tigers or to maintain good posture against the weight of huge breasts). Her shoulders were definitely narrower than her hips, which I think was an important part of Frazetta's aesthetic distortion.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-51190385807423084572011-07-05T08:44:50.901-04:002011-07-05T08:44:50.901-04:00António,
Well, personally I think Mannerism is the...António,<br />Well, personally I think Mannerism is the place to begin when attempting to understand El Greco, but there is still some kind of strange, disturbed eccentricity that goes beyond Mannerism in my opinion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-25860827216340020162011-07-05T07:23:47.001-04:002011-07-05T07:23:47.001-04:00Anonymous: impressive corset picture! Literally St...Anonymous: impressive corset picture! Literally Stomach-(and liver, etc)turning!<br /><br />Tom: If elevation was the point, what of the fact that he seems to elongate also along the horizontal , as we've seen in some examples? Those arms on the cross would look absurdly thin, for instance, as they are squeezed at a right angle to the deformation of the legs and torso. (One could always argue he made a mistake in those cases, but that seems sort of a lame error...:))António Araújohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10477716038667816702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-89852036565992313972011-07-05T06:41:01.034-04:002011-07-05T06:41:01.034-04:00Yes etc,etc , good point I know El Greco is a mann...Yes etc,etc , good point I know El Greco is a mannerist and that he was influence by such artist as Tintoretto. But proportions of figures where often change if a picture or sculpture was going to be well above he height of the viewer to compensate for perspective distortions.Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04641223414745777056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-10737203486112511472011-07-05T03:35:00.961-04:002011-07-05T03:35:00.961-04:00Tom:
>why do you think he was painting >fro...Tom:<br /><br />>why do you think he was painting >from a model?<br /><br />I used the example of painting from the model because it is easier to explain, but the same applies if he is painting from memory or imagination (after all when we do that we are comparing our drawing with the "model" in our mind, and that one was built over time under the effect of whatever optical problems we may have)<br /><br />Etc,etc: Exactly! To me the whole thing screams of mannerism, and if there is historical evidence of a direct influence (I didn't know that, thanks), then it seems the simpler hypothesis. Even without that, arguing simply for personal creativity and stylization is much more credible than summoning a thesis of mental illness, not to speak of preposterous self-contradictory optical disfunctions. I think such strong claims would require strong evidence to support them, while arguing for simple creativity does not.António Araújohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10477716038667816702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-23685220352757911072011-07-05T00:13:53.038-04:002011-07-05T00:13:53.038-04:00Also, it impresses me that Raleigh was well aware ...Also, it impresses me that Raleigh was well aware that women are more flexible than men, and slightly exaggerates the fact to emphasize feminine gestures and body language.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-6060713570697744372011-07-04T23:33:27.423-04:002011-07-04T23:33:27.423-04:00The women as depicted by Henry Raleigh move and dr...The women as depicted by Henry Raleigh move and dress harboring back to the 50ies, when female elegance and charm (as portrayed by rounded naked sloping shoulders & elongated neck) were highly prized. Today what seems to be highly prized by the masses in terms of 'female' beauty is Jennifer Anniston's cuteness, or Lady Gaga's wierdness. Lady Gaga in a state of languor, looking at the man with bedroom eyes... shoulders and cleavage en déshabillé ? hmmm. What a notion! How absurd!<br />We hope that you do not need to go into the witness protection program! ...is this not your addiction....gBStimmeDesHerzenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15084934926989805342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-18506237534705217492011-07-04T21:58:07.423-04:002011-07-04T21:58:07.423-04:00You guys are aware that El Greco visited Italy and...You guys are aware that El Greco visited Italy and was highly influenced by Mannerism which preferred elongated figures?<br /><br /><i>THE PROPORTION OF A MANS BODY OF TENNE FACES IN LENGTH AND BREDTH<br /><br />CHAP. VI.<br /><br />It standeth with good reason that (following the methode of the ancient Grecians) I should make this body, whose proportion I intende to handle particularly, answerable to the symmetry of all other artificiall bodies, which may be made farre more beautiful, then Nature affordeth any: wherein notwithstanding the whole symmetry of arte may be comprehended more or lesse.</i><br /><br />Lomazzo<br /><i>Trattato dell'arte della pittura, scoltura et architettura</i>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-24498127037349896132011-07-04T20:43:23.271-04:002011-07-04T20:43:23.271-04:00It looks like a lot of his painting where meant to...It looks like a lot of his painting where meant to hang high.<br /><br />http://curetheblind.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/high-altar-santo-domingo-el-antiguo-toledo.jpg<br /><br /><br />The lengthening doesn’t appear as strong in his portraits,<br /><br />http://curetheblind.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/knight-hand-breast.jpg<br /><br />http://www.ibiblio.org/wm/paint/auth/greco/cardinal.jpg<br /><br /><br /><br />Just curious Antonia why do you think he was painting from a model? And to further support your case if he saw everything taller then it actual is he must have been running and bumping into things his whole life. OuchTomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04641223414745777056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-90891855301969406572011-07-04T20:33:08.951-04:002011-07-04T20:33:08.951-04:00MORAN:
>Antonio did you happen to keep any >...MORAN:<br /><br />>Antonio did you happen to keep any >phone numbers?<br /><br />Really, a gentleman does not share such things! ;)<br /><br />...<br /><br />(...he sells them! What do you say a hundred bucks per digit? I'll even throw in the country code for free! :D)António Araújohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10477716038667816702noreply@blogger.com