tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post4345276251962756045..comments2024-03-28T22:57:07.128-04:00Comments on ILLUSTRATION ART: ARTISTS IN LOVE, part 16David Apatoffhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comBlogger122125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-11950585167386764472015-08-16T10:33:37.707-04:002015-08-16T10:33:37.707-04:00Can anyone answer "where is the location, and...Can anyone answer "where is the location, and what are the mountains displayed in, Albert Bierstadt's Field of Red and Yellow Wildflowers?"Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17535710004919044018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-6190074395624817812010-07-09T11:58:18.403-04:002010-07-09T11:58:18.403-04:00Rosalie's dress is lovely.Rosalie's dress is lovely.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-8265351887150341732010-06-29T09:07:22.573-04:002010-06-29T09:07:22.573-04:00Anonymous said: "Now it's about more frig...Anonymous said: "Now it's about more friggin' painters, not illustration."<br /><br />Anonymous, I have always had trouble distinguishing between friggin' painters and friggin' illustrators. There are some obvious cases at the extreme ends of the spectrum, but mostly a huge gray area in the middle. Do you have a definition you'd like to propose? <br /><br />(Another?) Anonymous wrote: "How about discussing the bathroom habits of the mistresses of well known artists."<br /><br />Anonymous, I have written on <a href="http://illustrationart.blogspot.com/2007/10/artists-in-love-part-twelve.html" rel="nofollow">Bonnard's famous series on his mistress Marthe in the bath.</a> Does that count?<br /><br />Leah-- thanks very much! I appreciate hearing from you.<br /><br />Joyce-- "prelapsarian"? Oooh, I like that!David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-5100237395438078392010-06-28T13:58:19.626-04:002010-06-28T13:58:19.626-04:00Much as I love Bierstadt's small trail studies...Much as I love Bierstadt's small trail studies, these larger compositions remind us that artists tend to masticate their subject until it is rendered as their vision. For example, Bouguereau's beautys usually have dirty feet; and Bierstadt's majestic western landscapes were the equilvalent of a made for TV vision of the pristine prelapsarian west. If you want to know what something looks like in reality, you need to go and see it for yourself. Even photographs can be manipulated to tell what the artist has in mind for you to see. As always David, thanks for the thoughtful prodding as to what makes it art.Joycehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12842860906627601448noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-12392807004167923172010-06-28T10:16:26.171-04:002010-06-28T10:16:26.171-04:00Really interesting, thanks for posting!Really interesting, thanks for posting!Leah Waichulishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04125524098543901461noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-74929590654705615502010-06-27T21:30:51.557-04:002010-06-27T21:30:51.557-04:00What sort of bathroom habits were you thinking of?...What sort of bathroom habits were you thinking of?Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08249577762409684046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-26451155332021651672010-06-26T19:54:17.993-04:002010-06-26T19:54:17.993-04:00How about discussing the bathroom habits of the mi...How about discussing the bathroom habits of the mistresses of well known artists. That will keep everyone typing. After all, not many can talk about illustration past saying what they like and the occasional Frazatta story<br /><br />Yeah, girlfriends in the loo. That should drive up the readership.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-28687372338140288092010-06-26T18:09:57.078-04:002010-06-26T18:09:57.078-04:00"You seem to deny that possessiveness plays a..."You seem to deny that possessiveness plays any part in matters of the heart. Or is it that you think humans should get beyond possessiveness?"<br /><br />It sure does, but that insecurity doesn't need to be played to. Some of the happiest relationships I've ever seen were polyamorous, and that's not in spite of the insecurity but often because of it. It can really go a long way towards bringing two people together ironically enough.Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08249577762409684046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-18107008751947095822010-06-26T07:49:33.682-04:002010-06-26T07:49:33.682-04:00I also prefer the posts on illustration more than ...I also prefer the posts on illustration more than posts on fine art but I like these posts about sex most of all. I'd like to see a whole blog of this Artists in Love series. I like the unusual way he discusses pictures and fucking.MORANnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-83341479305832325362010-06-25T21:42:29.096-04:002010-06-25T21:42:29.096-04:00So where's the illustration? That's what d...So where's the illustration? That's what distinguished this place from every other asshole/artsy bookstore philosophical...hey-look-at-my-writing-but-I-can't-draw blog. Now it's about more friggin' painters, not illustration.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-6489412224275061952010-06-25T21:41:25.814-04:002010-06-25T21:41:25.814-04:00So where's the illustration? That's what d...So where's the illustration? That's what distinguished this place from every other asshole/artsy bookstore philosophical...hey-look-at-my-writing-but-I-can't-draw blog. Now it's about more friggin' painters, not illustration.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-67516454345256015662010-06-25T17:04:42.948-04:002010-06-25T17:04:42.948-04:00Rich,
I guess "contemplation" was a bad...Rich,<br /><br />I guess "contemplation" was a bad word choice as it is associated with conscious deliberation, which isn't part of an aesthetic emotional experience. <br /><br />There is a difference between conscious philosophizing and epiphany. <br /><br />If you recall how your experience went, you will see that your horror and revulsion gave way to morbid fascination and then philosophizing. You were never horrified at the same time as you were consciously philosophizing. There was a transition that happened after you became acclimated to the horror. This separation of event and understanding is the hallmark of an experience. <br /><br />Aesthetic Emotion is based on aesthetic epiphany, where event and understanding are united. <br /><br />(Even though I used a quote from Robert McKee last time on this point, it was Joyce who first began using the word epiphany in this context, and he was translating from the german idealists)<br /><br />From what you write about Romance, I wonder if you've ever been in love. You seem to deny that possessiveness plays any part in matters of the heart. Or is it that you think humans should get beyond possessiveness?kev ferrarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09509572970616136990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-89638760001429617072010-06-25T16:05:25.430-04:002010-06-25T16:05:25.430-04:00"And that experience tells you nothing except..."And that experience tells you nothing except that you are squeamish. Contemplation isn't just looking and feeling grossed out."<br /><br />Theres more than squeamishness when you watch something like that. There is the end of a life, the futility of the struggle, the cold hard truth. Do you see this as much different than that painting of the lions approaching the praying christians in Rome?<br /><br />"You seem to think romance means humping."<br />Well, if not synonymous they're certainly related.Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08249577762409684046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-69560527644259046122010-06-25T15:56:43.189-04:002010-06-25T15:56:43.189-04:00Richard,
1. Your first example isn't the expe...Richard,<br /><br />1. Your first example isn't the experience of terror, but the experience of revulsion and horror. And that experience tells you nothing except that you are squeamish. Contemplation isn't just looking and feeling grossed out.<br /><br />2. In your second example, I wasn't talking about "open relationships." <br /><br />3. Sex may be fun, but betrayal isn't. In my examples, I was talking about a situation where there is a mutual understanding that there is a commitment, and therefore there is the possibility of betrayal. <br /><br />4. Of course infidelity keeps some sane. True. Long term relationships can be difficult. But, as you may recall, I was talking about "what is romantic", not "shit happens and I gotta screw somebody else or I'll go mad." <br /><br />A society of people acting like animals on the sly has nothing to do with romance. You seem to think romance means humping. So a society that is, uh, petering itself out, is a more romantic society.<br /><br />My experience of romance is really about ever increasing intimacy, physically and psychically. The anonymity of sex wherever and whenever seems the opposite of that.kev ferrarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09509572970616136990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-7637293561233431342010-06-25T15:15:38.790-04:002010-06-25T15:15:38.790-04:00"We can't contemplate terror when we are ..."We can't contemplate terror when we are terrified. The experience has not been distilled for consumption."<br />When I see a wasp slowly laying it's eggs in the back of a big squishy caterpillar I can definitly contemplate terror without personally being scared for my own wellbeing.<br /><br />"What I actually wrote was regarding people who pursue infidelity because it is thrilling... those people are self-destructive."<br />But why welse would you pursue infidelity, or any relationship for that matter. Sex is fun! If we look at pre-Westernized Japan it was highly accepted for both the man and woman to take lovers as long as you take care of the brats. They were having infidelitous relationships because those relationships were exciting. Were they self-destructive? No!<br /><br />Infidelity is often the only thing you can do to keep sane in a poor pairing, but with kids in the mix. <br /><br />Also, if we didn't live in this world with its awful monogamy morals it wouldn't ever be a destructive thing, there wouldn't be anything to lose. <br /><br />"Art can show us these subtle distinctions: in American movies, having an affair usually means you’re the villain, while in French films, it more often means you’re the protagonist. I found, while travelling the world to research a book on the subject, that simple conversation can also whittle out the emotional rules. In Japan, a married woman was confused when I asked if she felt guilty about having a lover; the thought hadn’t occurred to her, as she was otherwise meeting her obligations to her family.<br /><br />In Moscow, a family psychologist perked up when I brought up the subject of adultery. “It’s obligatory,” she said. Surely I had misunderstood her? “No,” she insisted, “I think it’s wise,” and went on to explain that she had enjoyed a number of extramarital affairs during her own 15-year marriage - although lately she had cut back because she was so busy at work. Then she wrote her name in my notebook to make sure I got the spelling right."<br /><br />God, I hate monogamy.Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08249577762409684046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-60372803461705402322010-06-25T14:16:38.733-04:002010-06-25T14:16:38.733-04:00Also...for the sake of full disclosure, years and ...Also...for the sake of full disclosure, years and years ago I did a couple stories for a "stroke" comic called "One Fisted Tales" But...I still couldn't help trying to get all political with them.....like my story "The Nipples of Satan" where a kid accidentaly sees nipples on TV and goes on a crazed rampage. Because that's what nipples would do, and why we must hide them away from decent folks.<br /><br />So, if I haven't "titillated" too....it's only because my drawings weren't good enough.normnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-13729881562872575372010-06-25T14:13:12.948-04:002010-06-25T14:13:12.948-04:00Richard,
Your Indian girl scenario is a romantic ...Richard,<br /><br />Your Indian girl scenario is a romantic story. But the complexity of such a thing in real life, not the cliff notes-storybook version, leads me back to the idea that, in real life, the most pure romance is between two unattached people. Without attachments, the freedom is greatest and there is the least likelihood that others are being harmed/tormented by the romance. Call me crazy, but I believe harming others in the process of pursuing our desires, taints the joy of pursuing and fulfilling those desires.<br /><br />I didn't say that "because they've fallen in love outside of their relationship they are looking to wreck their lives." What I actually wrote was regarding people who pursue infidelity because it is thrilling... those people are self-destructive.kev ferrarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09509572970616136990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-11187321246201591292010-06-25T14:00:15.333-04:002010-06-25T14:00:15.333-04:00David, :)
I get it. You are constitutionally agai...David, :)<br /><br />I get it. You are constitutionally against the idea of aesthetic philosophy that reaches any conclusions about basic principles of Art. You want space for the free creativity of human beings to make what they will to express themselves without being burdened by old standards and crusty judgments.<br /><br />I think, in a sense, because you will not stoop to defining Art, you take the word Art to be a kind of honorific, a bit of praise, a salutation. Or maybe a meaningless advertising word and nothing more. <br /><br />All that is fine. We are only sharing opinions here. I have sympathy with all that as a humanist... I love a lot of the work that gets made that has literally no use or sense to it... just a bit of silliness, a splash of color, a strange shape, a fun and unexpected combination of elements, a circular pile of stones.... all great. <br /><br />But there really are distinctions to be drawn between something great, (like King Lear), and something minor, (like people with television sets for heads bumping into each other on a stage until, after a half an hour, a man in a bright red suit comes on to announce that the audience are stupid consumers of mindless shows.) If such a distinction matters to you, investigating the distinction is not simply an exercise, but an effort to come up with some answers.<br /><br />(I should insert here, that I hope it is understood that everything I say is open for argument. However, if I prefaced every single thing I write with "in my opinion..." there wouldn't be much use in writing at all.)<br /><br />So, on your protests...<br /><br />Stonehenge: I don't need to categorize the feeling one gets from seeing stonehenge because nobody is calling it art. Its just an attraction. <br /><br />The difference between the aesthetics of nature and the aesthetics of a human created work, is that humans make organized marks for a reason... it is understood that we are imparting information. When we look at nature, we may be overcome by a feeling of peace or terror, but there's no symbolic content to this experience. We can't contemplate terror when we are terrified. The experience has not been distilled for consumption. <br /><br />King Lear: I agree the play is unweildy. But I've always thought the core of it was a fairly straightforward theme, as played out by Lear: The wise placement of trust versus the foolish placement of trust. Lear, in a moment of weakness, places his trust in the flattering words of knaves, rather than his favorite daughter, who will not flatter. Everything else spirals out from there. This theme is echoed, with variation, in the secondary story about the nobleman. The crusty old principle involved is that the core of a narrative is the theme.kev ferrarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09509572970616136990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-86625102445753283472010-06-25T13:35:37.594-04:002010-06-25T13:35:37.594-04:00David,
Thanks, I think you stated my point pretty ...David,<br />Thanks, I think you stated my point pretty clearly.<br />I feel like at some point here I should say,how I really feel, instead of my hypothetical arguments.<br />Sexy art when it really gets me going kind of makes me uneasy. Milo Manara stuff is too effective for my taste.<br />My speed is more like the Sparrow art book of John Watkiss' paintings. Beautiful nudes...but they don't press "those" buttons.<br />I also get a little creeped out by guys at comic conventions asking other guys to draw Wonder Woman naked, or guys who's art collections are nothing but a lot of beaver shots.<br />I was asking the questions I asked here, pretty much to myself as much as anyone else.<br />I think Claire Wendling may walk the line better than most. Her Aphrodite stuff is sensual as heck and does press "those" buttons...but the artistry isn't overwhelmed.....at least for me.<br />But, I'm still arbitrary. I like Bill Ward stuff a lot....and Little Annie Fanny.<br />So...who knows....<br /><br />As for all the "What Is Art" stuff here, I'm ok with Kev's definition working for Kev...and I can sure see his point. My definition is more along the lines of communicating through a particular disipline. I think a cartoon can be just as valid as a symphony or a comic book or a novel. It just all depends on how well it's done and how much value I place on the ideas communicated.<br />I don't feel the need to have that definition work for anyone else, but it's pretty close to a description of what works for me.<br />And I think it's fun to talk to other people about how they define art. <br />I think it says something about them more than art itself.normnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-44827708789317141572010-06-25T12:56:04.232-04:002010-06-25T12:56:04.232-04:00"Lack of corporeality," the best artist ..."Lack of corporeality," the best artist know there is nothing behind form, that's why they can do so much with it. Abstract painters tend to be the most literary and literal of painters. <br /><br />Signs generated thought. Better to see the relations between things.Tomhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04641223414745777056noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-77161380991506404802010-06-25T12:23:56.248-04:002010-06-25T12:23:56.248-04:00"Richard, I just meant that even musical note..."Richard, I just meant that even musical notes are not purely abstract or incorporeal because they tell a story."<br /><br />Well, yes, mostly. I guess almost always if you are listening to strictly 12tet Western music -- we're just too oversaturated with this overly simple system of music. It's caused us to hear the same song 10,000 times before with 10,000 different names.<br /><br />If however you break out of our 7 note pieces, or even the slightly higher complexity of chromaticism, and move away from strict systems of tonality that gives music a lot more of a chance to move towards abstraction/ethereality.<br /><br />I mean, if we only painted abstract expressionist pieces with 7 pure colours you could see how quickly those paintings would fall into genre/icons.Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08249577762409684046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-84299570291232939302010-06-25T12:13:28.487-04:002010-06-25T12:13:28.487-04:00"Single girls meeting single guys is romantic..."Single girls meeting single guys is romantic."<br />You don't find it romantic when married Indian girl falls in love with kindly European man, thus escaping the trap of organized marriage and falling in love for herself for the first time?<br /><br /><br />"Otherwise the situation is complicated and somebody is getting hurt or embarrassed."<br />Does someone getting hurt and embarrassed really mean it isn't romantic? I mean, no matter what single woman you are falling for chances are there is a geezer out there who wishes he still had her and there will be a number of geezers in the future who wish they could have her; your getting together will invariably cause some people torment, that doesn't make the relationship your in feels any less romantic.<br /><br />"People who enjoy the added frisson of danger that complication affords are people that are looking to wreck their lives."<br />Just because they've fallen in love outside of their relationship they are looking to wreck their lives? Isn't it possible that they just happened to find someone whos a better fit outside of the orthodox monogamous relationship that they were duped into?Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08249577762409684046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-90366907800910155852010-06-25T12:09:40.965-04:002010-06-25T12:09:40.965-04:00Richard, I just meant that even musical notes are ...Richard, I just meant that even musical notes are not purely abstract or incorporeal because they tell a story. You can't listen to the Beethoven or the Grieg I mentioned without thinking about the sun coming up in a beautiful country landscape. You can't listen to "Night on Bald Mountain" or for that matter, random notes in a minor key, without it suggesting a different scenario. In that sense, music doesn't quite achieve the purity Laurence describes when he writes that its "lack of corporeality [makes it] much closer to the ethereal realm of pure thought." Its connnotations can still leave us "trapped at the physical level." But I do agree with Laurence's general point.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-28427800184303615962010-06-25T12:03:54.476-04:002010-06-25T12:03:54.476-04:00"even when seeing a particularly beautiful wo..."even when seeing a particularly beautiful woman for the first time—which is not to be confused with seeing a really hot chick wearing very little for the first time...if you get my distinction. One is elevating and the other is debasing."<br /><br />Hot chick |= beautiful woman?<br /><br /> Isn't the difference just how much they let on that they enjoy having intercourse?Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08249577762409684046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-68718631896388074812010-06-25T11:59:14.835-04:002010-06-25T11:59:14.835-04:00"music unavoidably has external reference poi..."music unavoidably has external reference points as well (Beethoven's "pastoral" or Grieg's "Morning Mood" being two obvious examples.)"<br /><br />I don't know that I follow. They are iconic pieces and thus...? They're heavily referenced?Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08249577762409684046noreply@blogger.com