tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post1517560220810489852..comments2024-03-28T16:44:09.428-04:00Comments on ILLUSTRATION ART: THRUSTDavid Apatoffhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comBlogger136125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-52517057592872618852012-04-30T18:04:09.378-04:002012-04-30T18:04:09.378-04:00Incredible post! It's really, really interesti...Incredible post! It's really, really interesting!<br /><br />Awesome blog!!Tom Buttonhttp://www.camaloon.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-64864202079410938932010-03-18T08:39:59.418-04:002010-03-18T08:39:59.418-04:00etc, etc said: "Do you believe that comic boo...etc, etc said: "Do you believe that comic book art plays a significant role as a standard with which you evaluate traditional (i.e fine or old master) art?" <br /><br />I think that comic book art and related popular arts are a significant art form that has played a "significant role" in modern culture. I think that at its best, comic book art form is superior to a great deal of what passes as "fine" art today. I have seen many pages of comic art that I would gladly take over artwork I have seen hanging in the Museum of Modern Art in NY. I don't have a problem evaluating it in the same breath that I use to evaluate "fine" art-- it depends on the image and the goals of the artist. I'm not sure I follow your point about being the "standard with which I evaluate" fine art. <br /><br />>>"And also, do you regard comic book art as a kind of culmination or consummation of traditional (i.e. fine or old master) artistic progress and practice?" <br /><br />No, but I don't think it needs to be the culmination or consummation of anything to be terrific art. I am one of those who believes there is no "progress" in art on the larger scale, the way we find progress in the sciences. You will have a hard time persuading me that art in 2000 AD is per se superior to art from 2000 BCE, or even 30,000 BCE.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-65527106701843064052010-03-16T13:55:43.994-04:002010-03-16T13:55:43.994-04:00David,
I did not say that I disapprove of "fo...David,<br />I did not say that I disapprove of "force".<br /><br />You inquired about the significance of my post but did not respond when I offered it to you.<br /><br />Do you believe that comic book art plays a significant role as a standard with which you evaluate traditional (i.e fine or old master) art?<br /><br />And also, do you regard comic book art as a kind of culmination or consummation of traditional (i.e. fine or old master) artistic progress and practice?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-65530536195159812592010-03-16T05:56:49.980-04:002010-03-16T05:56:49.980-04:00Kev said, "Comic books are an offshoot of ill...Kev said, "Comic books are an offshoot of illustration..." etc.<br /><br />An interesting genealogy, Kev. Hadn't thought of it quite that way, but sounds right to me.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-55278984016113438522010-03-16T05:49:48.076-04:002010-03-16T05:49:48.076-04:00etc, etc said, "the images of Hale's work...etc, etc said, "the images of Hale's work you posted (as well as those I found from a Google image search) display a hyperbolical kinetic force to the figures (which obviously you admire) that look to me to be derivatives of comic book super-heroes,"<br /><br />That doesn't surprise me, as this type of visual "force" is the theme of this post. It seems that you disapprove, but it is not clear why. "Force" is one of the oldest themes in some of the greatest art. (Simone Weil famously observed, "The true hero, the true subject matter, the center of the Iliad is force." Or try reading Shakespeare sometime). We've compared different methods of depicting force, contrasting Hale with deKooning. Do you have a problem putting them on a level playing field for this purpose? I certainly don't. deKooning came to the US to be a commercial illustrator, and when he found he could make more money as a house painter, he did that instead. So apparently deKooning did not share your daintiness about boundary lines. Or is it the "comic book" stigma that troubles you? If I had more room here, I would certainly have thrown in some examples by Jack Kirby-- not my favorite artist, but a master of what you call "hyperbolical kinetic force." He could pack more punch into a single comic panel than anyone else. <br /><br />No art form gets a free pass around here; if you think that comic books are per se unworthy, then you will have to explain the merits of Lichtenstein and Warhol's comic work to me.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-3401783069111247672010-03-15T19:41:47.104-04:002010-03-15T19:41:47.104-04:00There is no necessary connection.
Just like there...There is no necessary connection.<br /><br />Just like there is no necessary connection between poetry and lies.<br /><br />Art isn't journalism.kev ferrarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09509572970616136990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-91015103645019963252010-03-15T19:04:30.447-04:002010-03-15T19:04:30.447-04:00Kev,
I did not condemn hyperbole. But since you b...Kev,<br />I did not condemn hyperbole. But since you brought it up, do you see any connection between hyperbole and mannerism which you did condemn earlier?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-4592061431702561192010-03-15T17:45:58.802-04:002010-03-15T17:45:58.802-04:00Comic books are an offshoot of illustration. Illus...Comic books are an offshoot of illustration. Illustration was an adaptation of victorian era salon painting to the requirements of art reproduction in magazines and books. <br /><br />Every technique Frazetta or Hale use, including hyperbolicity, was developed before comic books was invented and before illustration really got going as a genre. I think you don't realize how much hyperbole has been a component of art from the start. Nor, I assume, have you ever played football, rugby, kill-the-carrier, or been in a bar fight.kev ferrarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09509572970616136990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-7072331920976011872010-03-15T17:25:56.818-04:002010-03-15T17:25:56.818-04:00"I'm not sure what makes you think this, ..."I'm not sure what makes you think this, or what significiance you attach to it."<br /><br />David,<br />No doubt you will find this response not to your liking as well. I think this because the images of Hale's work you posted (as well as those I found from a Google image search) display a hyperbolical kinetic force to the figures (which obviously you admire) that look to me to be derivatives of comic book super-heroes, and as well I find the sci-fi setting of Hale's work to be very suggestive of comic books. The significance is that I have a very strong notion that the standard by which you and many others judge traditional art is in fact comic books.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-33216595038253449212010-03-15T08:27:52.310-04:002010-03-15T08:27:52.310-04:00BRiZL-- thanks for the link to a very interesting ...BRiZL-- thanks for the link to a very interesting discussion of Phil's work, with a collection of images I had not seen before. I especially enjoyed the photograph of Phil in his studio. I was surprised to see that he looks like a normal, handsome, well adjusted, friendly guy. I figured he would have purple tentacles and levitate at least 6 inches off the ground.<br /><br />etc, etc said: " Phil Hale is basically a comic book artist, fine finish aside."<br /><br />I'm not sure what makes you think this, or what significiance you attach to it. (Or is this another of those instances where-- sigh-- it just wouldn't be worthwhile explaining yourself?)David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-72167961724768894292010-03-14T19:18:17.325-04:002010-03-14T19:18:17.325-04:00I certainly do mean to include Braque and Picasso,...I certainly do mean to include Braque and Picasso, and Mondrian, and Kandinsky, and Cezanne, and NC Wyeth, and Rockwell, and Sorolla, and Gruger, and John Bauer, and Pogany, and Flint, and Frank Tenney Johnson, and Dean Cornwell. and Dulac, and Rackham, and Frank Lloyd Wright, and whoever else you can name who just managed to sneak in their training before the best and brightest became infinitely more likely to go into the sciences. (Although the afterglow of that era lasted a while longer, and flickers still remain)<br /><br />I really do think it was an era of incredibly beneficial coincidence for the arts, where communication and wealth and book craft and the decorative arts and aesthetic philosophy and psychology, and appreciation for history, ritual, and myth, and stagecraft and mend-bending advances in the sciences all came together, synthesizing and refining thought from all over the globe and from all time (Classical Greece, Renaissance, Baroque, Persian, Egyptian, Arabian, Japanese, 18th Century Germany, 16th Century Dutch.... you name it) into one massive and multifaceted force for the professional creation of high quality culture. <br /><br />Surely aesthetic philosophy was less conspicuous in other eras, simply because at no point in history until then were so many people educated so deeply in aesthetic philosophy. Which meant there was immense value in being really good that could be translated into wealth. The arts became a source of national pride for every country in the western world at once. Never happened before or since. It was just a perfect storm of an era... the Renaissance that blew away the Renaissance. <br /><br />In my opinion, of course.<br /><br />kevkev ferrarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09509572970616136990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-76997842171748025532010-03-14T19:08:25.353-04:002010-03-14T19:08:25.353-04:00David said: "What stopped them from painting ...David said: <i>"What stopped them from painting a warrior bashing another with the same vigor that Phil Hale found to paint Johnny Bad Hair bringing a club down on a robot?"</i><br /><br />Probably because such an intimate acquaintance with the ghastly aspects of survival triggered an urgency to get away from it in their more intellectual/artistic endeavors.<br /><br />Conversely, the average artist or non-artist living today is so pampered by comparison that they become bored and can only imagine such life and death situations. We have to create artificial scenarios in things like video games, punk/rap/heavy metal music, superhero comics, and sci-fi/fantasy illustration to get the adrenaline pumping. This re-creation of ancient survival ordeals without any actual experience in such matters allows the mind to exaggerate and intensify what it can only understand superficially.<br /><br />It reminds me of how overweight people were considered beautiful back in the days of Rubens. Girth was a symbol of success and thin, toned bodies reminded everyone of physical labor and strife. Today, fat people are considered ugly, lazy and dumb while thin people who work out 2 hours a day are envied.<br /><br />The poles have been reversed but it adds up to basically the same thing.theory_of_mehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04330560294467684481noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-18063162214080462712010-03-14T11:04:54.539-04:002010-03-14T11:04:54.539-04:00Rob Howard said: "Okay David, I'll join i...Rob Howard said: "Okay David, I'll join in:<br />Giotto di Bondone (Italian, 1267–1337) <br />Leonardo da Vinci (Italian, 1452–1519) <br />Albrecht Dürer (German, 1471–1528)...."<br /><br />Rob, I share your affection for Giotto and Durer but I assume you are not offering them up as examples of artists who can convey speed and thrust? Measured by this standard (even if no other) Frazetta is superior to them both.<br /><br />Kev Ferrara said, "As far as I can tell, the most intellectually spectacular moment of aesthetic philosophy in the arts was roughly between 1870 and WWI." <br /><br />Wow, Kev-- you're a braver man than I am. There's a lot of competition for that trophy. If you'd included Cezanne, Picasso, Braque and perhaps Duhamp on your list, I would've understood your choice a little better, but apparently that's not what you intended. I suspect that in previous high points of culture, the "aesthetic philosophy" was a little less conspicuous because it was less of a separate academic discipline and more integrated into religion or the art trade, or just daily life.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-1967182049903605312010-03-14T10:29:15.211-04:002010-03-14T10:29:15.211-04:00Francis Vallejo said, "sorry to break up the ...Francis Vallejo said, "sorry to break up the flow... but great post. Hale is indeed a genius!"<br /><br />Francis, always happy to have you weigh in, and it never breaks up the flow to compliment talent. That's what this is all about.<br /><br />Alan Lawrence said: "Rubens would get dizzy and go nuts in our slight speed, broad band world."<br /><br />Alan, the Danish physician Otto Sperling once described his visit to Rubens’ studio to watch him paint, “in the course of which [Rubens] was read to from Tacitus while, at the same time, he dictated a letter. As we did not disturb him by talking, he began to speak with us, carrying on his painting without stopping, still being read to and going on with the dictation.” In addition to being an artist, Rubens was a diplomat, author, teacher and lawyer (and fathered many children in his spare time. His huge studio was apparently a hotbed of activity with many apprentices and students, platters of food, and--best of all--a number of wonderful, buxom ladies in various stages of undress).David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-92040923880538963632010-03-14T08:53:06.700-04:002010-03-14T08:53:06.700-04:00Diego Fernetti said: "I do think, however, th...Diego Fernetti said: "I do think, however, that we're being somehow unfair to the old masters, as their perception of "movement" and "force" in their era was surely different than ours."<br /><br />Diego, I take your point and in a <a href="http://illustrationart.blogspot.com/2007/06/cheap-sensationalism-of-old-masters.html" rel="nofollow">previous post</a> I had some fun with the fact that when Leonardo da Vinci wanted to convey ultimate power he had to turn to thunderstorms or soldiers clashing on horseback for his models, rather than thermonuclear explosions or intergalactic collisions. Certainly our models for speed and power are dramatically different than the models available to artists from an earlier era. <br /><br />At the same time, many of these artists lived in eras of strife where combat meant that you delivered a death blow with an axe or sword, up close and personal. You knew the speed and frenzy and panic of battle in a way that few of the artists I have highlighted do. You knew how hard you had to thrust a spear to pierce armor, and you were motivated to put your full might into it because you knew what terrible things would happen to you or your family if you didn't pierce flesh. <br /><br />Why didn't artists such as these feel they had the artistic freedom to record these traumatic experiences in a more vivid, impressionistic way? What stopped them from painting a warrior bashing another with the same vigor that Phil Hale found to paint Johnny Bad Hair bringing a club down on a robot? Laurence John has referred us to an excellent Caravaggio painting of a figure in action (and you'd think Caravaggio, who fought regularly with a sword and even killed a man, would have a special appreciation for speed and power) but in my view it still conveys less of that smack-in-your-face power (and more Renaissance elegance) than Hale's work. <br /><br />The great classical scholar Bernard Knox reminded us that no matter how civilized the ancient Greeks seem to us, and no matter how great their culture, when it came time to eat they would have to go out back and murder the family pet and chop it to pieces. Knox felt that this part of their lives added a certain important perspective about the world to Greek art. I would think that pictures would be similarly affected by the violence that surrounded ancient and medieval artists. The Renaissance, too, was a time of massive upheaval between warring factions.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-19736542961416552922010-03-14T08:02:03.427-04:002010-03-14T08:02:03.427-04:00Thanks to all for the many suggestions of fine pai...Thanks to all for the many suggestions of fine painters whose work is relevant to this theme. I have enjoyed getting acquainted or reacquainted with artists such as Solomon, Rochegrasse, Huston, Kanevsky and Adel among others. While some of these painters are more successful than others (in my view) at achieving the "blunt immediacy" that Hale describes, all are worthy of attention and I am glad to have them as part of my vocabulary. I have also enjoyed your reasons for advocating them, and some of the exchanges on their merits. I feel that I have really benefitted from this dialogue.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-73455262570403305502010-03-13T17:22:36.578-05:002010-03-13T17:22:36.578-05:00etc. etc. and imposter
If you would both get real...etc. etc. and imposter<br /><br />If you would both get real names our chances for mature communication would be greatly enhanced.Josshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18396610569402016319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-22917162722172882212010-03-13T03:08:33.552-05:002010-03-13T03:08:33.552-05:00Surely any picture that addresses a theme or seeks...Surely any picture that addresses a theme or seeks to portray an idea or a scene is to a greater or lesser extent an 'illustration'.<br />The fact that it may be commissioned by another is irrelevant as 'fine artists' always had patrons or customers to satisfy.<br />I see that the term has been hijacked and used as a means of demeaning a certain kind of artist.Karl francisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-77676568910527517762010-03-12T17:07:26.802-05:002010-03-12T17:07:26.802-05:00"Hmmm... let's see... what I can say that..."Hmmm... let's see... what I can say that will instantly piss people off and gain me some attention."<br /><br />Having fun pretending to be me? Wanna try my clothes on too? No doubt who you are and that you are the real center of attention here.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-92089313258824855412010-03-12T16:42:02.801-05:002010-03-12T16:42:02.801-05:00Hmmm... let's see... what I can say that will ...Hmmm... let's see... what I can say that will instantly piss people off and gain me some attention.etc, etchttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16842857128365186742noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-10908647460530036932010-03-12T15:49:54.421-05:002010-03-12T15:49:54.421-05:00"what precisely are the differences between f..."what precisely are the differences between fine art and illustration art?"<br /><br />If one is looking for generalizations it might be far more illuminating to consider demographics, especially comic-book fans. Phil Hale is basically a comic book artist, fine finish aside.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-80002205032346015462010-03-12T14:57:28.130-05:002010-03-12T14:57:28.130-05:00There seems to be a sub plot going on here in the ...There seems to be a sub plot going on here in the comments section. I'll just ignore that! Art history was never my stong point. I've just discovered your blog. Interesting point you make about the depiction of movement in illustration against fine art. I'm not sure I totally agree with you. It think it's a case of context, one form of artwork which has to be actively viewed in a book versus an image on a wall which thrusts itself onto the visual cortext unbidden.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03395668578114543922noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-77856426566732624592010-03-12T14:54:38.103-05:002010-03-12T14:54:38.103-05:00There seems to be a sub plot going on here in the ...There seems to be a sub plot going on here in the comments section. I'll just ignore that! Art history was never my stong point. I've just discovered your blog. Interesting point you make about the depiction of movement in illustration against fine art. I'm not sure I totally agree with you. It think it's a case of context, one form of artwork which has to be actively viewed in a book versus an image on a wall which thrusts itself onto the visual cortext unbidden.Drenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-59203727404137893542010-03-12T09:38:21.407-05:002010-03-12T09:38:21.407-05:00Rob, Why not concentrate more on developing an act...Rob, Why not concentrate more on developing an actual idea for a post before laboring to make it sound witty? You contribution to this thread has been nothing but a string of perfume-soaked turds.A Fellow Pretentious Hacknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-10573429554684504382010-03-12T07:10:00.647-05:002010-03-12T07:10:00.647-05:00"what precisely are the differences between f..."what precisely are the differences between fine art and illustration art?"<br /><br />This must be the Twinkie of all questions because it's shelf life expired decades ago and yet it still gets people munching on it.<br /><br />When a sweet young thing who asked..."what is jazz,"... Louis Armstrong was reported to have said..."If you've got to ask, you'll never know."<br /><br />Some people will never be able to swing with the beat.Rob Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07587811799010051018noreply@blogger.com