tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post1621947974142508955..comments2024-03-28T18:17:09.618-04:00Comments on ILLUSTRATION ART: DRAWING A CROWDDavid Apatoffhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comBlogger53125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-25891139275301824002022-12-15T14:11:33.606-05:002022-12-15T14:11:33.606-05:00Apologies for the threadnomancy, but fantastic pos...Apologies for the threadnomancy, but fantastic post! Thanks so much. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-77294532119040789282009-06-22T17:52:42.362-04:002009-06-22T17:52:42.362-04:00im actually impressed with the amount of work you ...im actually impressed with the amount of work you have done, where do you find time for all this? what other sites are you with?<br /><br /><a href="http://www.pnworldwide.net" rel="nofollow">Illustrators</a>PNWorldwidehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15072796811196507008noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-25074818389404096902009-05-24T16:33:57.375-04:002009-05-24T16:33:57.375-04:00Mr. Apatoff,
A most excellent blog.
Are you famili...Mr. Apatoff,<br />A most excellent blog.<br />Are you familiar with Burne Hogarth? It may be that your<br />father knew him. Let's communicate off-blog.<br />-Cheers,<br />K.A. Ryan<br />hoagwork@gmail.comUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07303148504419434919noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-22842992379844261352009-05-18T22:40:00.000-04:002009-05-18T22:40:00.000-04:00It's been said here before: another brilliant post...It's been said here before: another brilliant post about a brilliant illustrator. I've returned to MAD for more visual inspiration than any other publication I can think of. And clearly Drucker is in a league of his own. ¶ I'm so glad this blog exists.Antonyhttp://www.siteway.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-33629752601345587912009-05-15T15:52:00.000-04:002009-05-15T15:52:00.000-04:00Blogart, amen!
Kev, thanks for the very, very nic...Blogart, amen!<br /><br />Kev, thanks for the very, very nice (and sensitive) treatment of Drucker and Hirschfeld. I think you are right on the money. I would add only that Hirschfeld tended to appear in the high rent district for caricature, while Drucker appeared mostly on the wrong side of the tracks, in MAD. Perhaps that's why I love Drucker more.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-34759704110041497232009-05-15T10:25:00.000-04:002009-05-15T10:25:00.000-04:00Drucker and Hirschfeld were the greatest caricatur...Drucker and Hirschfeld were the greatest caricaturists of the 20th century, I think. Hirschfeld's reductive designs make him the more "intellectual" (more in tune with the diagrammatic mind) but Drucker's genius for lovable profusion is equally brilliant. Harvey Dunn said, "Never touch your brush to canvas except to get the character of the thing you want to express." And every touch Drucker made was in accordance with that suggestion. His marks have their own poetry, their own suggestion. So strikingly full of heart for comedy, when it is so easy to be nasty, snarky, snide, cynical, dismissive, or cruel (see Kruger Stars). But Drucker's work is never that way. Its always loving. Its really wonderful stuff. (I can't say the same for the dialogue, which is throwaway.) <br /><br />There's a truism from screenwriting, that in Drama every word must advance the plot in some way. Tempo is of the essence and the audience's attention must be kept rapt. But with comedy, the flow of the narrative can be stopped at any point for a laugh. Seeing Alf on Axel F's jacket made me think of that. If that Alf-Axelf "joke-about-spelling" isn't "inside" I don't know what is! (Unless I'm missing the real joke? Somebody enlighten me if there's some other reference at work.)<br /><br />Al Dorne was flat out great. And you can't even get mediocre at art unless your love for the form redlines the needle. So don't give me that "Dorne was only in it for the money." nonsense. It is really important to make money at art so you can do more art and spend your life the way you want. With his drive, Dorne could have made a mint in any field imaginable. And the famous artist courses are a boon to any artist who lays hands on them, and Dorne's sections are the MOST generous of all (IMHO).<br /><br />Rob, bless your heart, you annoy me in equal proportion to how much I enjoy reading your opinions -- I may in fact, enjoy being annoyed, something I'll have to work out with my therapist! :) --This time out, it was your insistence on Cezanne's compositional prowess that bothered me. There was nothing Cezanne knew about composition that wasn't already known and taught in Paris and Munich since at least the 1820s. And there is quite a lot about composition that Cezanne did not know, or did not exhibit his knowledge of, shall we say. The Modernists, quelle horreur, were cartoonists. They plopped all the symbols and subliminals on the surface and said, "look at my colorful philosophical rebellion!" And the kids said "yeah!" Cezanne is wonderful in his own way, but I prefer Kirby, Vassos, or Kay Neilson... those who could appreciate that the unfathomability of a Rorschach ink blot was merely its unfathomability. And thus had the integrity to be unpretentious about symbolic suggestion.<br /><br />And your discussion of touch tension was maddening as well, seeing as it neglected to mention context, i.e. hierarchies of graphic tension, which is the real issue... understood by artists since the 1500s at least. (bless your heart)kev ferraranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-11443356596883796822009-05-11T19:13:00.000-04:002009-05-11T19:13:00.000-04:00To search and research the Drucker's panel details...To search and research the Drucker's panel details is one of the greatest joys in life.Blogarthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07255190106257920456noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-59688147667378878512009-05-08T12:41:00.000-04:002009-05-08T12:41:00.000-04:00>As I became more involved, I began to >writ...>As I became more involved, I began to >write books on the subject <br /><br />Speaking of books, I was looking for a book on gouache ("gouache for illustration")that you wrote and is out of print. It's impossible to get, even second hand, except for outlandish prices.<br /><br />Are there any plans for a new edition, or any way to buy a pdf version or something like that? I'd love to get my hands on that information, I am curious about gouache since long ago when I used to drool all over Syd Mead's stuff, but I am hopeless with that material to this day - all I found was vague information and people who just make do with it.António Araújohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10477716038667816702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-42791885745346422212009-05-08T10:12:00.000-04:002009-05-08T10:12:00.000-04:00Rob, thanks for the link. I have visited the publ...Rob, thanks for the link. I have visited the public portions of the Cennini forum before and found them quite interesting, just as I found the discussion you pointed out to me. I did not subscribe back then, not because I couldn't afford the $7 but because I couldn't afford the time commitment. Although I am in a different line of work, my fingers still itch to draw, and this kind of temptation could create serious problems for my day job. One of these days (in the not too distant future) I hope to be back to subscribe.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-8194268945607000992009-05-07T23:09:00.000-04:002009-05-07T23:09:00.000-04:00Ah boy...Mort Drucker...imagine how little attenti...Ah boy...Mort Drucker...imagine how little attention this incredible artist has gotten from the art press in general, merely because he works in comics. The ability to capture personality in 2d form is hard enough, but to do it in dozens of panels in a row while being creative with layout, page design and all the many other disciplines one must have to be a good continuity artist...well, in his case, it is just staggering.kenmeyerjrhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03784570125726397121noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-7819512692251154142009-05-07T20:38:00.000-04:002009-05-07T20:38:00.000-04:00I do have a problem with people whose main motivat...I do have a problem with people whose main motivation is financial remuneration; in chasing that they lose sight of the transcendent potential of art and become 'worker ants'.David, I never said Dorne was a hoarder or a Shylock figure, just a guy who NEVER lost sight of the financial aspect to his work.It's to his credit that he 'put something back', but he sure made plenty.Notice here I make no intimation that these other works may have been for social advancement as I have read.Anon2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-82408696222686733382009-05-07T19:52:00.000-04:002009-05-07T19:52:00.000-04:00Anon2, I don't know why you say "make no mistake [...Anon2, I don't know why you say "make no mistake [Dorne's] whole drive was for money." <br /><br />Dorne was concerned about the treatment of people with disabilities and served for no pay on the President's Committee for Employment of the Handicapped.<br /><br />Dorne was concerned about ethical standards in the field of art, and became Co-founder of the Code of Ethics and Fair Practices of the Profession of Commercial Art and Illustration (again for no pay).<br /><br />Dorne was concerned about teaching young artists and donated a significant amount of time to lecturing at art schools, even though he had never been able to afford art school himself. He endowed a professorship in drawing at a local university, and after he died the Albert Dorne Foundation encouraged the arts among underprivileged and naive artists. It is not difficult to find testimonials on the internet from <A HREF="http://www.worldofportraitpainting.com/adventures/front/heroes.htm" REL="nofollow">professional artists</A> who recall his personal generosity and state that "Albert Dorne had the gift of encouraging and inspiring everyone who came in contact with him." <br /><br />And last but not least, Dorne was a substantial philanthropist who remembered how free museums and free libraries had helped him as an impoverished youth, and who was determined to pay back his debt.<br /><br />If Dorne's "whole drive was for money," I would be very surprised and impressed if any reader of this blog has done as much as Dorne to help his profession in particular and humanity in general.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-67942086717646240652009-05-07T18:21:00.000-04:002009-05-07T18:21:00.000-04:00>>Dorne may have had redeeming qualities but...>>Dorne may have had redeeming qualities but make no mistake his whole drive was for money.In a way, understandably so, but he became a sort of successful worker ant totally lacking in finesse and always 'folksy' because that's where the cash was. A great draughtsman though.<<<br />Do you have a problem with people making money in art?Rob Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07587811799010051018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-58836764664514178212009-05-07T18:19:00.000-04:002009-05-07T18:19:00.000-04:00>>I don't see how your criticism -on lim...>>I don't see how your criticism -on limitations of technique, on damage to the students - wouldn't apply just as well and stronger still to the common art school. Yet it is my impression your criticism of the ateliers is far more violent than any you have towards the contemporary teaching of art.<<<br /><br />You'll find no cavil from this quarter. The truth is that I was happily putting along with my partners, operating a solid and busy studio. Having a studio is a magnet to young artists and we saw hundreds of portfolios. I am of the belief that there is as much <I>nascent</I> talent now as there was in the Renaissance. But that talent is just what you start with and there's a lot more to it than just hard work. There's <I>smart</I>. work and that was lacking. That and the fact that art schools became the repositories for so many desultory youths filled with the usual angst, intellectual BS and not two original thoughts to rub together.<br /><br />Any serious students surrounded by that many flesh failures was boaund to be misguided. Top that off with teachers who simply did not even know the rudiments but could talk a good game and sit in a chair long enough to get an advance degree and we saw the results...the tearfully sad results walking through the door.<br /><br />After hearing me rail about the way the kids were being ripped off, my wife finally said..."put your money where your mouth is." So I found an art school where i could teach one morning a week. Although I knew about my field, I clearly had not mastered the skills of pedagogy (the inverse of the usual situation). It took a few months before I came to understand a lesson plan and other teaching skills but eventually I was able to acquit myself adequately. A high proportion of my students went into the field, much higher than any of the other art schools.<br />As I became more involved, I began to write books on the subject and take more and more time away from my practice (if you ever want to lose money, write books).<br /><br />All of this was in direct rebuttal to the standard fare being taught in many art schools and most university art programs.<br /><br />By that time, the star of illustration was on the wane. I was fortunate to have been in the field when it topped the U.S. Department of Labor's list of lucrative professions. Illustrators were the best paid (by far) of any profession. Better than doctors, lawyers and Indian chiefs (Native American Community Activists?). Then, just as the spellcheck convinced people with jumbled thoughts that they could write, the Mac and the graphics programs came along and convinced Everyman that he was an artist...deep, deep inside, and junior colleges began to offer courses in graphic design.<br /><br />The results were obvious, with Frazatta knock-offs who should have been decorating vans and motorcycle tanks, setting the aesthetic pace. The ateliers are merely a kneejerk reaction to gamer art.<br /><br />So we find ourselves at one of the numerous periods of deep mediocrity in art. Caught between the technically perfect machine-made giclées and the equally perfect handmade replicas of machine-made art.<br /><br />Obviously, there will soon be a swing toward work that has a handmade quality...that's the way the penddulum swings. Where we are is like the blind men examining an elephant...it's like a sanke says the one near the trunk...it's like a tree says the one near the leg...it's like two basketballs in a sack says the blind man who gets crushed.<br /><br />As an age, we are blind men examining only one part of the problem. I can say that there are lessons from the many areas of modern art that should not be thrown out. Many of them can be applied to realistic art, which by itself is a mere tabula rasa awaiting the input of real content and intellectuality.Rob Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07587811799010051018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-16349931299512114082009-05-07T16:15:00.000-04:002009-05-07T16:15:00.000-04:00Travolta's foot is NOT 'subtly distorted', it is i...Travolta's foot is NOT 'subtly distorted', it is in fact a piece of excellent foreshortening by MD. Second, this is an establishing shot so it needs to tell us where the story is taking place so MD DID 'need to do that'.He just wouldn't need to do it all again in the next panel. See Alex Toth on this.Finally, I'm not aware of many artists that DO throw in unecessary detail in their work,to them it is necessary either for narrative or decorative reasons- hence 'subjective'.OK?Anon2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-22283633495760743972009-05-07T15:24:00.000-04:002009-05-07T15:24:00.000-04:00Mort Drucker, fabulous.A phenomenal caricaturist.B...Mort Drucker, fabulous.A phenomenal caricaturist.But more, a brilliant artist much copied { Torres, Viviano etc ),NEVER equalled.Anon2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-85147668460994407082009-05-07T15:20:00.000-04:002009-05-07T15:20:00.000-04:00Dorne may have had redeeming qualities but make no...Dorne may have had redeeming qualities but make no mistake his whole drive was for money.In a way, understandably so, but he became a sort of successful worker ant totally lacking in finesse and always 'folksy' because that's where the cash was. A great draughtsman though.Anon2noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-13119069451358681282009-05-07T14:42:00.000-04:002009-05-07T14:42:00.000-04:00I love the way you look at art. I loved Mad Magaz...I love the way you look at art. I loved Mad Magazine as a kid and you sure have given me a new perspective towards some of the art in them. Keep it up, please. I really enjoy your blog.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-69616571440430146112009-05-07T13:46:00.000-04:002009-05-07T13:46:00.000-04:00OMWO
--"You are the one(s?) who follow him around...OMWO <br />--"You are the one(s?) who follow him around like a pack of hyenas..."--<br />As for me (not identical with Anon2, don't you become paranoid!), I've been reading this blog on a regular basis for years now, and since, on a very, VERY cold and rainy day some Rob Howard entered the scene I've slowly but surely gotten the impression that his e n d l e s s self-adulation in some 20 page-filling comments to every single one of davids posts is indeed following me... I find it unbearable to read this stuff. Really. Hasn't this guy an own blog?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-30719327779319232512009-05-07T12:50:00.000-04:002009-05-07T12:50:00.000-04:00ps: Regarding Koons...yes,indeed count me on David...ps: Regarding Koons...yes,indeed count me on David's camp :DAntónio Araújohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10477716038667816702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-80741552131820386122009-05-07T12:49:00.000-04:002009-05-07T12:49:00.000-04:00>OMWO you are not alone in >disagreeing with...>OMWO you are not alone in >disagreeing with my attitude >toward the so-called ateliers<br /><br />well, my view towards the ateliers is: although I get the point that they teach a limited array of skills, I think I am not wrong to say that they at least teach hard work, perseverance, and a general respect for technical skill. In other times that might be too little, but these days I think it's an important counterpoint to the self-indulgence of art school majors. <br /><br />And, if they really just teach the measuring and rendering of the single figure, that's still two objective skills more than most art schools...<br /><br />Now, although I say this, I wouldn't be caught sight-sizing for all those hours for the life of me. It's not my kind of thing, and I don't personally like techniques that rely on such microscopic detailed copy of the stactic model (sight-size the way they do it sometimes just seems like long distance tracing to me). But I regard that as personal preference, and not as a condemnation of the ateliers, while other stuff that happens at art school, I regard as just plain wrong. <br /><br />Now, I know nothing about the politics of ateliers, so I don't comment on that. But even if there are skeletons in the closets, I don't see how your criticism -on limitations of technique, on damage to the students - wouldn't apply just as well and stronger still to the common art school. Yet it is my impression your criticism of the ateliers is far more violent than any you have towards the contemporary teaching of art.<br /><br />As for David, it is very true. David, next time (there won't be one) I'll take it outside.Sorry about any broken china on the premises :)António Araújohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10477716038667816702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-43301293718642908032009-05-07T12:07:00.000-04:002009-05-07T12:07:00.000-04:00Whoops! I meant to say that the Merlin figure was ...Whoops! I meant to say that the Merlin figure was 1 1/2" INCHES tall. At 1 1/2 FEET tall, I'd be painting this picture until the end of time.<br /><br />OMWO you are not alone in disagreeing with my attitude toward the so-called ateliers, and you most certainly are not alone in disagreeing with my appreciation of modern art. David had to go to hospital when he learned of the guilty pleasures I take in liking Jeff Koons (can I say that name in print, David?).<br /><br />Now, to drive the stake further into my own heart, my first real art lessons were with Hans Hofmann. To the atelier devotee, that's the artistic equivalent of being born a crack baby.<br /><br />All kidding aside, what we are joined by is a genuine love of art and, most especially, illustration. We are especially fortunate to have in David, a dedicated champion of the art of illustration. I am doubly appreciative in that David has keen eyes and elevated taste. Let's not forget that he is our host.Rob Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07587811799010051018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-25367056564681391022009-05-07T11:04:00.000-04:002009-05-07T11:04:00.000-04:00troll...
I disagree with Rob Howard's view on mod...troll...<br /><br />I disagree with Rob Howard's view on modern art, I disagree with his view on ARC, and on the ateliers. Just like with any other people, I find common points and disagreements with him.<br /><br />I do find myself, I confess, in complete and utter agreement with him on this single point.<br /><br />You are a despicable idiot.<br /><br />This is the last crumb you are getting of my attention, no matter what you say, you creature - I will not answer a single word. Your contempt for everyone only reflects upon you. For less than what you said I would punch the man that would dare say it to my face. But you are not a man, you worm. Not even a child, nor a parasite, though I am sure you live a sheltered existence fed by either your mommy or the state. Still, not even a parasite you are.<br /><br />You don't even exist.António Araújohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10477716038667816702noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-39984961287018152282009-05-07T10:41:00.000-04:002009-05-07T10:41:00.000-04:00Thossaporn, there are so many "amazing" things tak...Thossaporn, there are so many "amazing" things taking place in these comments, I hope your comment relates to the art.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-40526488867527189642009-05-07T10:27:00.000-04:002009-05-07T10:27:00.000-04:00Anon2, I think that if you read about Al Dorne and...Anon2, I think that if you read about Al Dorne and learn something about the hardships he overcame, the terrible price he paid to overcome them, the important philanthropic work that he did, the encouragement he gave to young artists, and you take a hard look at his original drawings and paintings, you will be embarrassed by the way you have dismissed his accomplishments.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.com