tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post1696193582240851824..comments2024-03-28T13:34:12.139-04:00Comments on ILLUSTRATION ART: DRAWING THE LINEDavid Apatoffhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comBlogger48125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-77291882708731540032007-12-11T03:57:00.000-05:002007-12-11T03:57:00.000-05:00Thank you for enjoying some of my work :-) It's no...Thank you for enjoying some of my work :-) It's not art but some drawings to try something else and have some fun.Cathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08074252034707277334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-23481173939596649982007-12-09T14:17:00.000-05:002007-12-09T14:17:00.000-05:00Thanks, camille mm. I appreciate your comment (an...Thanks, camille mm. I appreciate your comment (and believe me, my French is worse than your English). I don't believe that illustration is necessarily better than comics, or that previous generations necessarily handled this subject more tastefully than our generation. You are right, I could have found some horrible examples of old erotic art, or some good examples of modern erotic art. By the way, I enjoyed some of the examples on your own web site very much.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-62394598286102688762007-11-26T08:29:00.000-05:002007-11-26T08:29:00.000-05:00Hello,your blog is very interesting but I have som...Hello,<BR/>your blog is very interesting but I have some problem with this post. You compare two series of images saying the second is far more interesting (it's your choice, I won't argue with that). The problem for me is that you choose to compare comics and illustrations. For me, there is no comparison possible: for comics you got quickly drawn images forming a narration (no word about it here) and on the other one, well done (for me) illustrations but only illustrations (a single image as an complete art). So I was not convinced by your demonstration. I think you could find some ugly sexual illustration from the XIX or XVIII century and very nice erotic comics from today.<BR/>(sorry for my bad english: I'm french).Cathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08074252034707277334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-54148047185004744212007-09-11T13:59:00.000-04:002007-09-11T13:59:00.000-04:001. Found blog through google2. Didn't have time to...1. Found blog through google<BR/>2. Didn't have time to read all the comments.<BR/><BR/>I think there's also a secondary line in pornography that glorifies rape. I can make a whole argument on that, but it's not my main point.<BR/><BR/>I did a project on censorship in my Art History class. Since everyone tended to be so militantly anti-censorship (as we artists usually are), I tried to find examples the would make them personally feel uncomfortable or threatened. One I came up with was a guerilla performance art piece dealing with the pervasiveness of date-rape and aquaintence-rape, especially on college campuses.<BR/>So I took a list of every male in the class, arbitrarily removed 1/2 the names, and posted the list under the heading "Potential Rapists" Ideally, a final product would also include photos by the names. <BR/>Personally, I think such a piece would be extreme and its point often missed, but it is completely within the realm of possibility. It does not fall under categories of slander or libel, under the argument that everyone is a "potential" rapist, especially in the view of someone they've just met. <BR/>Would the artists in my class censor this demonstration if they could? Would most people- particularly males on the list?<BR/><BR/>It's just such a slippery slope, logically and legally.<BR/>I don't have an answer, but at least I offered my class a view they probably hadn't considered.<BR/><BR/>Since I came across this blog by random, I probably won't be back to check for comments. If you want to respond, just email me.SmellsLikeCrayonshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00606213998272186576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-60620816484531381982007-09-11T03:21:00.000-04:002007-09-11T03:21:00.000-04:00David, I want to commend you for the way you handl...David, I want to commend you for the way you handled anonymous three. It was very considerate of you to accommodate those who either don't want to see pornography or appreciate a warning. I've been to blogs where the authors feel that people should deal with truth (as they see it) in its most unvarnished state and refuse to place simple warnings for imagery or language that might cause offense in others. They all share one thing in common: contempt for the opinions and feelings of others. I'm impressed you did not act the same way.<BR/><BR/>~Douglas<BR/>-=-<BR/>☆ <A HREF="http://thesplinteredmind.blogspot.com" REL="nofollow">The Splintered Mind</A> - Overcoming Neurological Disabilities With Lots Of Humor And AttitudeD.R. Cooteyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17139544455838967475noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-70761559560738072942007-09-10T08:04:00.000-04:002007-09-10T08:04:00.000-04:00nowadays,we dont see romanticism anymore.Its the r...nowadays,we dont see romanticism anymore.Its the raunchiness which is in vogue.<BR/>Every one of my friends got introduced to sexuality through porn.Sad but true that most of adolescents are discovering sexuality like this.<BR/>--<A HREF="http://not-quitting.blogspot.com" REL="nofollow">desp</A>DESPERADOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03044130534294239704noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-22156862011821812802007-09-09T14:10:00.000-04:002007-09-09T14:10:00.000-04:00Thanks, Kate O, for the elaboration. I enjoy both...Thanks, Kate O, for the elaboration. I enjoy both the intellectual stimulation and the visual appearance of art. I fault the first set of images for their lack of intellectual stimulation as well as their lack of execution. But I guess that's the "taste" point you were making.<BR/><BR/>Annamade, thanks for checking in and thanks for your comment. I enjoyed your blogs.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-50157971853799027682007-09-09T13:53:00.000-04:002007-09-09T13:53:00.000-04:00Jason, you make a number of broad assertions that ...Jason, you make a number of broad assertions that I would not feel comfortable making. Is art really based on moral dictates which are in turn based on cultural dictates? I can see a rough organic relationship between three areas involving subjective values and taste, but I don't see the strict hierarchy that you see. <BR/><BR/>You say that aesthetic principles change depending on where and when you live. I understand there is local flavor to artistic styles, but the variety of art on this blog from Asia, Africa, Europe and the United States, spread over 30,000 years, causes me to disagree with you on the big point. I don't know about you. but I think the erotic Japanese woodblock prinys by Hokusai and Eisen are absolutely exquisite.<BR/><BR/>Most importantly, I don't think that artistic standards (that is, a willingness to say that inferior, insensitive art is inferior and insensitive) would squelch Walt Whitman, William Blake or any of the other individuals you mention (most of whom I admire very much). If we can establish that their art is neither illegal nor immoral, then aesthetic evaluation strikes me as the most benign way to pass judgment on art. And we cannot be afraid to pass judgment on art.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-17355816363784622262007-09-08T19:03:00.000-04:002007-09-08T19:03:00.000-04:00Thank you for such an intelligent post on the subj...Thank you for such an intelligent post on the subject! As a portrait artist, I have struggled with the subject of exactly how much and what I am willing to portray. Pornographic comic strips however, are certainly not anything I ever wish to attempt, I am certainly sure of that!annamadehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18328223356199962544noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-70273645178099299532007-09-08T17:21:00.000-04:002007-09-08T17:21:00.000-04:00David-It's a moral issue, instead of an aesthetic ...David-<BR/><BR/>It's a moral issue, instead of an aesthetic one, because aesthetics are built upon moral dictates, which are built upon cultural dictates... which change depending on where you go, in place and time. Your balance, harmony, and laws of composition change whether you're here in America, or somewhere in the Far East. Lady Chatterly's manifestos only apply to select parts of the western world, not everywhere... and only in a particular period of time.<BR/><BR/>So to try and use aesthetics in order to allow children to see depictions of "beautiful sex" versus "poorly executed sex" (which I still contest doesn't matter anyway because a kid's still seeing sex, regardless) requires a set of standards to be created that every artist should follow, lest he/she be "ridiculed" by the art world. <BR/><BR/>Again, this was the Rennasaince, along with many other eras in art, which tried to define what is good art and bad art. Let's try to create a set of aesthetic rules in order to control the moral output of art. Whether you like it or not, it's an institution, and you will always have those going against that insitution who are still creating beautiful art.<BR/><BR/>If your ideas on aesthetics worked, then we would never have had a William Blake, an Edgar Allan Poe, the Doors or the Beatles, a Van Gogh or a Delacroix, or a Walt Whitman. Countless other examples are those who went against the de facto rules set up by the art world according to their media and their time. So many were saying "That's just wrong!"... kinda like you are suggesting with your first three examples. <BR/><BR/>Delacroix is a perfect example of this, a guy who just crawled right up Ingre's butt. <BR/><BR/>How about Duchamp? How many people called him a "hack" for putting a urinal in a room and called it "art". You called the first three examples in your blog as products of "hack artists", yet who's standards are you using? <BR/><BR/>You also claim not to care if children are seeing sex through beautiful art, as long as it's not poor art... then I have to ask you, what exactly is your entire point, then? Is it a problem of children seeing sex, or is it a problem of rampant ill-executed illustrative art, according to the American illustration standards set up by those before us in the Golden Age (Wyeth, Pyle, Gibson, Rockwell, Parrish, Homer, etc), and upheld by the Society of Illustrators? And how are the two even related?<BR/><BR/>The issue of children being allowed to see depictions of sex is a moral issue, and an individual one, no matter how you slice it. You can't control this, not with government, not with religion, and not with aesthetics. As I said in my original comment, values cannot be legislated. Doesn't matter what kind of institution you put in place.<BR/><BR/>However, hack art is hack art, if you have a set of standards to measure art by. The only thing that really effectively manages this is the culture and the time period you're in. Without the support of the current collective society viewing your art and making discretionary decisions about it, as well as those in power buying and supporting it, you have nothing to use as a metric for separating good art from bad art.<BR/><BR/>Jason<BR/><A HREF="http://behnkestudio.com" REL="nofollow">BehnkeStudio</A>Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08369480988167492217noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-20912917848917303702007-09-08T16:27:00.000-04:002007-09-08T16:27:00.000-04:00I am not an artist, just someone that enjoys tempo...I am not an artist, just someone that enjoys temporary/contemporary art for the most part more than modern in general. I like modern dance, installations, painters, etc. I like that contemporary art feels alive and is made by artists we can support today. For me art is more about intellectual stimulation than technical display. All that really boils down to is aesthetics. And that may explain most of why I like the first prints more. <BR/><BR/>Additionally, in the Japanese prints I don't particularly like the enlarged genitalia (the last print). They seem somewhat monstrous. The toes look like fingers and the fingers like like small dancers. And in the original prints I think I simply prefer the content that is focused more on the female. But again I think this just boils down to aesthetics and personal taste.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-39150251382961578082007-09-08T15:52:00.000-04:002007-09-08T15:52:00.000-04:00Your examples are very tame. You should perhaps po...Your examples are very tame. You should perhaps post one or two really ugly sadistic drawings. I like porn and porn comics (up to Alan Davis or Druuma or Ferocious), but some of the ugly sadistic stuff very easy available does really give me the creeps. There is some stuff I find disgusting, that brings me to confront my own ugly desires, but there is a lot of plain sick stuff. Or this just middle-age hypocrisy?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-17272566062633099712007-09-08T14:45:00.000-04:002007-09-08T14:45:00.000-04:00Anonymous, thanks at least for calling me part of ...Anonymous, thanks at least for calling me part of the "intelligentsia."<BR/><BR/>It seems to me that you're asking an awful lot. I've already said that this art shouldn't be illegal and that I don't consider it immoral. That gives you more latitude than most artists in history. Now you say you also don't want to be criticized for producing art that I consider cheap and shallow. Any artist who can't withstand artistic criticism should probably find a new line of work.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-53236976962169358642007-09-08T14:24:00.000-04:002007-09-08T14:24:00.000-04:00You have just reinvented the same old solution the...You have just reinvented the same old solution the leftist intelligentsia always does = persecute those who get out of lockstep, not conforming to your specifications. This is how you want to keep artists in line - by the tyranny of the majority = artists ganging up and ridiculing those who are politically incorrect. Ah, what freedom of speech you allow. And you seem oblivious to what might be wrong with that.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-70210542503437211192007-09-08T04:44:00.000-04:002007-09-08T04:44:00.000-04:00Dear Kate O.-- please tell me more. I did not expe...Dear Kate O.-- please tell me more. I did not expect the first three pictures to make people recoil; I picked soft images that I thought would nevertheless get my point across. But I'm not sure what you mean when you say "I don't discount them as art." I think they are generally poorly drawn by hack artists, with no sense of design or sensitivity of line or color. But that doesn't mean they are ejected from the category of "Art."<BR/><BR/>Since you seem untroubled by the subject matter, I am really baffled that you prefer the first set to the second set of pictures. That is the point I would like to hear more about. If you tell me that you don't like Picasso I can understand that; he is an acquired taste. The woodcuts of Hokusai or Eisen are a little harder to understand. But let's hear your opinion.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-24332029764033917962007-09-08T04:02:00.000-04:002007-09-08T04:02:00.000-04:00Anonymous, thank you for the reply. Although I was...Anonymous, thank you for the reply. Although I was already clear on your implications. My point was that you didn't need to see what was under the balloon for the piece to be recognized as pornography. Pornography is a kind of story. And story forms can be recognized by various clues and cues without resort to specifics. <BR/><BR/>Best,<BR/>kevAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-9567637780443365172007-09-08T00:35:00.000-04:002007-09-08T00:35:00.000-04:00I'm sorry but I just have to go against the grain ...I'm sorry but I just have to go against the grain here a bit. I don't find the first 3 pieces all that offensive and don't discount them as art, while I rather dislike the later ones posted. I don't think that means that I'm developmentally stinted or emotionally incapable. <BR/><BR/>I think that like or dislike of art is often generational. What one generation appreciates, another may find impossible to like.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-11669402655263915672007-09-08T00:24:00.000-04:002007-09-08T00:24:00.000-04:00Kevin, in a way you're making my point. I just to...Kevin, in a way you're making my point. I just took it an extra few steps in regard to the viewer being a non-passive participant in completing an image.<BR/><BR/>To use your example: Let's say I think "cat" (for this example I'll remove other animals someone of another region may think ... in this case I'll share your same cultural and localized understandings enough to think it immediately). <BR/><BR/>Ok, what sort of cat do I picture? What color, markings, size and shape? Breed? One of those freaky hairless types? Or one of those exotic breeds that are descended from African big cats? Maybe, it's a stray and you're giving him the first real meal he's had in years ... maybe this is almost a tearful reunion between beast and man after the cat has been missing for countless days ... or maybe you've laced it with poison and he dies in the litter box following this sentence. What story do we want to invest in this sentence? <BR/><BR/>You are correct that we fill in an obvious part of the blank that may lack co-authorship ... "cat eats food and relieves itself" ... or "a man and woman engaged in a sexual act" ... but just a set up to the interpretation that follows. We are all individuals that will fill in a blank to lesser and greater degrees, and the direction we tilt it is our role in the conceptual process. <BR/><BR/>Let's say the average person looking at Serpieri's image that David posted thinks he's manipulating her with just fingers ... ok ... but let's say someone else is imagining a fist ... ok, the image is now much worse and I begin to cringe ... and then someone else with a good eye sees the lashes on her back, doesn't notice the device anywhere else in the image and suddenly registers the horror that maybe this image is far far worse than previously imagined ... 3 images in one ... and many more to be discovered if we care to waste our lives staring at the thing.<BR/><BR/>This thinking can become infinitely worse or more innocent (he could just be tickling her with a feather, too) based on the non-passive partnership a viewer shares with the image. Serpieri's image describes an obviously sexual act involving a man and woman (or, in your example, a cat, food, and litter box), but the range for interpretation is always as great and differing as we are.<BR/><BR/>bkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-60560134476128620712007-09-07T19:32:00.000-04:002007-09-07T19:32:00.000-04:00it's amazing,i love illustration~even my skill so ...it's amazing,i love illustration~<BR/><BR/>even my skill so lousy!Le-1502https://www.blogger.com/profile/03213778811794483502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-11354626925554345502007-09-07T15:02:00.000-04:002007-09-07T15:02:00.000-04:00As with so many things in life, parents should be ...As with so many things in life, parents should be parents. We Americans as a whole rely too much on our government and our media to tell us what is right and what is wrong. As a species we have been passing morals and standards though generations forever. I might suggest that we know what is best for our childern and should teach them accordingly. <BR/><BR/>My parents exposed me to art at an early age and I was never embarassed by it and grew up appreciating it sensibly. However, I took a haitus from the art world while raising my children and I can see that was a mistake. At age 12, my son still giggles when he sees a nude or says, "that's gross" when he sees a passionate work. I have consciously working with both of my kids so that they might have a better understanding of art.<BR/><BR/>As for your first illustrations, I am in complete agreement with you. Thanks for the honesty. It is refreshing.a girlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07459380476003266301noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-28339118812484651852007-09-07T14:53:00.000-04:002007-09-07T14:53:00.000-04:00Recently I was hired to paint erotic images of wom...Recently I was hired to paint erotic images of women ( with big boobs, of-course). It brought up in me mixed feelings. They were tastefullly done, but I am still adding to the saturated market of nude women. The way women are sexualized, all over the place, is sad and misleading. How is this harming men and women and their feelings toward each other? <BR/><BR/> I agree with much of what you wrote and learned something too. Women have so much to offer and deserve more respect.Sarahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12243108155340987728noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-61904138242647838242007-09-07T11:16:00.000-04:002007-09-07T11:16:00.000-04:00To anonymous, just as an aside: There is quite eno...To anonymous, just as an aside: There is quite enough information left, after the censorious word balloons are placed over the naughty bits in Serpieri's work, for us to know within a pretty narrow margin of error, what is being covered. We are not the co-author of the work by "filling in the blanks". <BR/><BR/>Just as you are not the co-author of the incomplete phrase, "I fed my (blank) his tender vittles and then he twitched his whiskers and went off to his litter box," when you figure out the missing word is "cat".<BR/><BR/>Lizard Princess, see the work of Jenny Saville.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-64664552725563141292007-09-07T10:20:00.000-04:002007-09-07T10:20:00.000-04:00I think a nude study of obesity would be very inte...I think a nude study of obesity would be very interesting. It would be a break from the status quo and would perhaps help us to re-think how we view our own bodies and other's as well, whether we are over weight, under weight or "model perfect" (whatever that means). <BR/>The percentage of people we see in art who are over weight does not even come close to matching how many people are out there who truly ARE over weight. It could generate some public discussion, I think.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-86802253158839211942007-09-07T09:31:00.000-04:002007-09-07T09:31:00.000-04:00Hi David,A thought-provoking post and I agree that...Hi David,<BR/>A thought-provoking post and I agree that censorship is never the answer.<BR/>You are now on my blogroll.<BR/>Keep up the good work!<BR/>vox arctusAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-26270452111131337292007-09-07T02:52:00.000-04:002007-09-07T02:52:00.000-04:00Brian, good point! Thanks so much Lena, Tabuleras...Brian, good point! Thanks so much Lena, Tabulerasa and velverb.<BR/><BR/>Andrew, thank you for a thoughtful and interesting take on things. I agree with much of what you said. But reconsider your point that this is a moral problem, not an aesthetic one. Moral and aesthetic problems share a common vocabulary of subjective value judgments, and the terms that we apply to successful artwork (balance, harmony, sensitivity, etc.) are the very same terms that we use to structure our moral lives. I suspect there is more overlap between the two than you may think. Finally, I agree that kids look at even "good" art to see the body parts, but it doesn't bother me as much if they are learning through beautiful poetry and art. Try reading Lady Chatterly's Lover looking only for the good parts. A lot of valuable things stick with you against your will.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.com