tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post2385899818124996588..comments2024-03-28T22:57:07.128-04:00Comments on ILLUSTRATION ART: ARTISTS AT WAR: GILBERT BUNDYDavid Apatoffhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-13886641692426664922022-08-18T20:11:59.277-04:002022-08-18T20:11:59.277-04:00Hello and thank you for this. My mom is Brooke Bun...Hello and thank you for this. My mom is Brooke Bundy, his daughter. So, yes, Gilbert is my grandfather. I never met him and only know him through the stories and clippings my mom has shared. I would have loved to have known him. But he took his life long before I was born. I appreciate people like you, who keep his story alive. Thank you.<br />Tiffanyrascalphotohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02515219129252642736noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-61388354932813924432015-10-26T04:17:55.415-04:002015-10-26T04:17:55.415-04:00Great blogGreat blogHarrihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05859975952989075391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-40540507038462951542015-10-26T04:16:47.255-04:002015-10-26T04:16:47.255-04:00Phew,this is a really interesting blog with profou...Phew,this is a really interesting blog with profoundly clever comments and exchanges of opinion here,I Won t necessarily go into the ins out outs (totally agree with Melly tho',it was less a moral fight by the ALlies more they had to defend themselves and had no choice...)<br />Than much else...<br /><br />I Found out about Gilbert Bundy when reading a book fist published in 1936,The Girls from Esquire,and his art really stands out,compared with the more crude drawings,less elegant illustrations of the other artists in there.<br />I imagine he was ,as proven,sort of...,by his suicide,a very sensitive person, I Also feel,that in a lot of cases the artist can t be really separated from the human being.<br />Cheers<br />Harrihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05859975952989075391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-82183984836456266262015-10-26T04:15:48.716-04:002015-10-26T04:15:48.716-04:00Phew,this is a really interesting blog with profou...Phew,this is a really interesting blog with profoundly clever comments and exchanges of opinion here,I Won t necessarily go into the ins out outs (totally agree with Melly tho',it was less a moral fight by the ALlies more they had to defend themselves and had no choice...)<br />Than much else...<br /><br />I Found out about Gilbert Bundy when reading a book fist published in 1936,The Girls from Esquire,and his art really stands out,compared with the more crude drawings,less elegant illustrations of the other artists in there.<br />I imagine he was ,as proven,sort of...,by his suicide,a very sensitive person, I Also feel,that in a lot of cases the artist can t be really separated from the human being.<br />Cheers<br />Harrihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05859975952989075391noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-91779562205412910032009-05-18T05:53:00.000-04:002009-05-18T05:53:00.000-04:00Just to comment on what Chad writes: "as a nation ...Just to comment on what Chad writes: "as a nation we comitted everything to defeat Hitler because Nazism was simply 'evil'."<br /><br />I agree that many of those who joined up shared this motivation, but the British government went to war with Hitler because Germany was a dangerous rival power not out of morality. After all, we appeased Hitler as long as we could, and significant sections of the British elite actually sympathised with him (e.g. members of the royal family). We were rather hoping he'd destroy the USSR for us...<br /><br />Sorry to distract from the main topic. Enjoyed the post.Melliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11506407316395323671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-79736878984821544162009-05-06T16:37:00.000-04:002009-05-06T16:37:00.000-04:00Ego ego ego ego ego ego ego ego ego ego ego.
Ega...Ego ego ego ego ego ego ego ego ego ego ego. <br /><br />Egad!<br /><br />Why don't you found an ego blog, so we won't have to hear your ego drone on about ego endlessly on this one. Thanks.kev ferraranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-43723549132106931032009-05-06T11:38:00.000-04:002009-05-06T11:38:00.000-04:00Yes, Hitler was ruled by his ego, but so are we al...Yes, Hitler was ruled by his ego, but so are we all, at least in the beginning of life. Self-preservation is also tied to the ego. To defend something you simultaneously have to assert something else. For example, defending my right to free speech also asserts that no one has the right to take it away from me.<br /><br />You seem to think of the ego as something that is purely negative. It isn't. There are positive aspects to having an ego as well, as I've already explained in my previous posts.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-67333699549470839082009-05-06T06:11:00.000-04:002009-05-06T06:11:00.000-04:00I suppose you could argue that Hitler's personalit...I suppose you could argue that Hitler's personality was ruled by his ego but I don't think the desire to protect oneself comes from the same place,that's all about self preservation, a defensive, not assertive emotion. Someone trying to inflict a clearly wrong analysis over other people is also a prime example of the ego unchecked :^)Chadnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-50421765236850288632009-05-06T00:20:00.000-04:002009-05-06T00:20:00.000-04:00kev: Well, you might want to give it some more tho...kev: Well, you might want to give it some more thought.<br /><br />Chad: If people didn't have ego at any point in their life they would just let someone like Hitler bulldoze over them. They'd be like flowers or trees that don't complain when they are stepped on or cut down.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-73952433591054258232009-05-05T21:21:00.000-04:002009-05-05T21:21:00.000-04:00Speaking from an English perspective, as a nation ...Speaking from an English perspective, as a nation we comitted everything to defeat Hitler because Nazism was simply 'evil'. We could have cut a deal which financially would have been easier but we felt a moral imperative to take on the fight. And I think this is why most people joined up, to protect themselves, their families and their country. I really don't think male ego came into it to any significant degree and all this pompous intellectualizing says more about people today than generations before. I think Bundy felt he had to make a contribution, saw and experienced some terrible things and being sensitive found life impossible to cope with after it was over.Chadnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-81991305426180033222009-05-04T19:00:00.000-04:002009-05-04T19:00:00.000-04:00duh. Really? Hadn't thought of that.duh. Really? Hadn't thought of that.kev ferraranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-27767625154449867152009-05-04T12:02:00.000-04:002009-05-04T12:02:00.000-04:00I'm actually giving more consideration to what you...I'm actually giving more consideration to what you're saying than you are.<br /><br />I'll take "doers" too but only if they've very carefully thought about what they want to do before they do it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-40945738965039885882009-05-04T08:31:00.000-04:002009-05-04T08:31:00.000-04:00I'm sorry anon, but if you aren't going to give du...I'm sorry anon, but if you aren't going to give due consideration to what I'm actually writing, I'm not going to continue the discussion. <br /><br />Take care, and watch out for that ego. It thinks its diagrams are achievements. I'll take "doers" over "seekers" any day.<br /><br />kevkev ferrarahttp://www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php?t=101106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-56316758231017240822009-05-04T02:27:00.000-04:002009-05-04T02:27:00.000-04:00"you seem fixated on this idea of playing the "I b..."you seem fixated on this idea of playing the "I bet I can track this back to ego" game."<br /><br />It's not really much of a bet since it's always a sure thing.<br /><br />"you think our rational abilities are separate from our passions."<br /><br />No. One can be very passionate about becoming more and more rational. I have no problem with that. However, as one actually becomes more purely rational, the delusion of the finite self (ego) begins to fall apart and since it is the source of all emotions, they will get progressively weaker until they stop appearing completely. This does not mean that you end up as an unfeeling automaton. It really means that your passion has born fruit. If a seeker did not have passion to begin with they would never have set out on the journey at all.<br /><br />I agree with what you said about creativity and as far as art and music, etc. go, it's a good thing. <br /><br />However, your idea of morality leaves a lot to be desired. First of all "knowing that we are passionate" has nothing to do with morality. A serial killer or child molester can know for certain that they have passion. What good is that? As for using our passion for "constructive ends", the criticism is pretty much the same. How do you decide which constructive ends are the ones we should be spending time and energy on? How can you know with any certainty if what you deem constructive is not actually destructive? What is right and what is wrong in terms of our conduct in the world? That's what morality really is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-10081109752067715922009-05-03T18:04:00.000-04:002009-05-03T18:04:00.000-04:00Anon, you seem fixated on this idea of playing the...Anon, you seem fixated on this idea of playing the "I bet I can track this back to ego" game. I can play that game too. Its a purely diagrammatic pursuit, which is exactly the kind of clockwork thinking that I am resisting. <br /><br />On your other point, it is a wholly antiseptic paradigm which refuses to acknowledge that joy and passion is as human as abstract symbolization. Which is to say, you think our rational abilities are separate from our passions. Again, that's diagrammatic thinking, which, if you've ever seen a map of the neuronal structure of the brain, cannot possibly map the true nature of the human.<br /><br />The marrying of passionate interest with rational thought is the stuff of creativity. Creativity harnesses, rearranges and synthesizes the elements of our environment to the betterment (and, yes, sometimes detriment) of ourselves and our fellow humans. That, to me, is the height of morality... knowing that we are passionate and using that passion to constructive ends. Sitting on the emotional sidelines critiquing passion wholly misses this fact. And by denying that, you cut yourself off from appreciating that passion and science go hand in hand to creatively alleviate human suffering and lack.<br /><br />I'd like to hear your "highest ambition" beat that.kev ferraranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-43817092320125849662009-05-03T04:10:00.000-04:002009-05-03T04:10:00.000-04:00The criteria for humanity that I use is simply the...The criteria for humanity that I use is simply the moral, or that which is purely logical. Only humans have the ability to develop a sense of ethics that goes beyond the animalistic ego. This has nothing to do with science, romance or any of the other things you mentioned, although I have no problem with science per se, it's just not the highest ambition a person can have.<br /><br />"I don't separate out the ego from all the other complex motivations we have."<br /><br />Name any complex motivation and I'll show you how it stems from ego.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-70911394977204763162009-05-02T23:33:00.000-04:002009-05-02T23:33:00.000-04:00Anon... I think we are on the same page about simu...Anon... I think we are on the same page about simultanaeity. I think we differ in our understanding of what it means to be human and what the exact nature of consciousness is. To be fully conscious is not, it seems to me, to be like an animal in the woods who must use his inside out nose to pick up the slightest scent of prey or predator. Who feels every ion in the air but does not recognize himself in the pond he drinks from. That's what it means to be an animal that is aware. Is that human awareness? Human beings have right side in noses. Human being can abstract life and codify those abstractions and pass them on in order to share information. Show me a cat with that in his hat! <br /><br />So, if you are going to categorize us as human, as separate from the not-human, then you need to select criteria by which to establish human-hood that is exclusively human. And then you will be forced to admit that what it means to be human is to be a scientist and an imaginative romantic, a cynic and a louse, and to dream of a better world while decorating our courtships with flowers, neckties, and bon bons. <br /><br />And I don't think of the ego as a small child, because I don't separate out the ego from all the other complex motivations we have. I just don't see it is a categorizable thing. It is the act of categorization, which is a political act, which causes divisions to seem manifest. Which then creates space for critique. Seek division and ye shall find.kev ferraranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-26923588543126779452009-05-02T14:49:00.000-04:002009-05-02T14:49:00.000-04:00kev:
I don't understand your point about not foll...kev:<br /><br />I don't understand your point about not following the needs of the ego. Obviously, denying yourself what you desire is going to cause emotional pain because the ego-mind experiences it as a loss or a lack. Think of the ego as a small child that doesn't get what it desperately wants, it's going to make a lot of noise.<br /><br />If not following your deepest desires causes heartache then your mind is still functioning egotistically. The purpose of Zen is not to become perfect at suppressing your emotions or denying yourself what you strongly desire. The real goal is to condition the mind so that strong desires no longer arise. The further you go on the path, the weaker your desires become. You can still go about the world doing things, you just no longer do them out of egotistical motivation.<br /><br />The goal is not to become a vegetable, that would be ridiculous. It's to become more fully human, that is, as conscious as possible.<br /><br />"the division is as real as the unification."<br /><br />I agree with that but not in the way I think you meant it. The division and the unification are just appearances, not real in and of themselves. If all things are really "one" then there can be no separation between them and therefore no real connection between them either. There are no ultimately real things, just arbitrary categorizations. Division and unification are also just empty dualistic concepts. Their reality is limited to their nature as arbitrary and empty categories, just like all finite things.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-71148951398726064302009-05-02T12:36:00.000-04:002009-05-02T12:36:00.000-04:00Anonymous,
shed your concerns about self & ego...Anonymous,<br />shed your concerns about self & ego usw, and reveal your identity! at least to those of us here in this invisible bus...StimmeDesHerzenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15084934926989805342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-58512461896515552422009-05-01T19:19:00.000-04:002009-05-01T19:19:00.000-04:00Anonymous, I share your belief in the deep connect...Anonymous, I share your belief in the deep connectedness of it all. And while I agree that the zen sense of ego can be seen as the bearer of the sense of division which causes heartache, it does not account for the heartache caused by not dividing, that is, not following the needs of the ego... i.e. food, shelter, protection for yourself, your loved ones, your community, your world, looking out for your future as well as others, exploration, discovery, medicine, invention, creativity.... Imagine the misery without such divisive acts of ego? Why spend life attempting to become, essentially, a vegetable. Why not just finish the unification of the consciousness with the universe by putting an end to the division of existence once and for all?<br /><br />I see zen as having a worthwhile point to make, but it is lacking the counterpoint of saying essentially, life is real and needs to be pursued or else more misery ensues. That is, the division is as real as the unification. It seems to me the only thing negative is suffering, which lies between living the division and unity.kev ferraranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-92180113957464994922009-04-30T15:20:00.000-04:002009-04-30T15:20:00.000-04:00kev:
I think there may be some truth to what you ...kev:<br /><br />I think there may be some truth to what you said about that "preening intellectual". Which is why I don't have much use for his conception of the ego.<br /><br />In Buddhism, the ego is the mental construct of a self as self-sustaining and existing apart from the rest of reality. Using pure logic, it can be seen that this sense of identity is irrational thus having no real basis in reality.<br /><br />Believing in this notion of self is what makes it possible to experience gain and loss, the source of desire, conflict and consequently, all the emotions. Since we are all born with an intuitive sensation of ego, it is what sets all our different motivations in motion.<br /><br />If you read the description of Zen in my previous reply, you might see that I don't grant words, or any other kind of categorization the "implicit claim to completeness" that you think I do. Words are just tools that can help us accomplish certain things if used correctly. Once they are used for their purpose, we have no reason to cling to them anymore.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-35944155208856353012009-04-28T19:19:00.000-04:002009-04-28T19:19:00.000-04:00"Art can be and has been about all these things. B..."Art can be and has been about all these things. But they all have something in common since they stem from the same source; ego. Do you deny that?"<br /><br />Do you deny that you are an inquisitor?<br /><br />Do you deny your anonymity?<br /><br />Little joke. Listen, we all have "egos", which is a nice little brand-name for a human characteristic that some preening intellectual sold to get some people on his couch in order to charge them. We all have a lot of different motivations that set us in motion. And we all have a lot of conflicts. Why do you need to simplify everything down to one brand name word for one human characteristic? Words/Brands are the worst kind of simplification, because, like all text, a word makes implicit claims to completeness. T'aint so. Words, of all communication mediums, have the least in common with life, and thus are the most apt to fall into word gaming, pace Wittgenstein. To my understanding, the gamed word, the hallmark of politics and advertising, is the starting point for ideology and ego. <br /><br />It seems to me that concluding that everything comes down to ego is one of those self-fulfilling philosophies that turns people into hedonistic calculators and nothing more. Reductionism of that sort offers nothing but satisfaction to the reductor.<br /><br />kevkev ferraranoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-37108009088961308172009-04-28T18:51:00.000-04:002009-04-28T18:51:00.000-04:00David:
If he was still being controlled by his su...David:<br /><br />If he was still being controlled by his subjective ego then it's no mystery why he went back to fight. Confronting something doesn't mean that you are cured of it. You associated those words with each other thus implying (to me) that the therapy somehow stopped the influence ego had on his actions. Even if he got rid of his patriotic delusions of virtue, he would still have other reasons to act the way he did, and most likely they were still egotistical.<br /><br />Real zen has nothing to do with Nazism, anarchy, Communism, or fascism. Zen is a tool which is used by the individual to rid himself of the spiritually destructive effects of dualistic thinking, not necessarily dualistic thinking itself. It weeds out the false from the true and in that sense, cures the individual of the "the conflict between right and wrong" which is "the sickness of the mind." The conflict is eradicated because there is no longer any confusion between those things which are absolutely true and those which are absolutely false. Zen is real philosophy, unlike the movements you mentioned because it takes absolutely everything into consideration. It is metaphysical, not merely political. It makes no assumptions.<br /><br />We cannot escape dualistic thinking. Our brains are hard-wired for it. Zen is used to uncover the fact that dualistic categories are not real in and of themselves and that they are properly used only in a practical sense, to accomplish goals in the real world. Of course, the goals of a person with ego and the goals of one with very little or no ego are worlds apart.<br /><br />There is no such thing as "objective factual knowledge". All things that exist must be seen by an observer. The closest we can come to objectivity is that there is no escaping this "fact".<br /><br />People with ego see "great big dead ends" where the relatively ego-less only see infinite possibility. But I wouldn't want anyone to take my word for it, everyone has to see it for themselves. Since it can only happen on an individual basis, it can never be turned into a religion, a political movement or a tradition and still be authentic Zen.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-31999489361787432082009-04-28T18:04:00.000-04:002009-04-28T18:04:00.000-04:00kev:
Are you better than "those pseuds with their...kev:<br /><br />Are you better than "those pseuds with their isms"? Have you dropped your egotism? You are implying that you know something they don't. Do you have "unassailable" knowledge or values which they lack?<br /><br />You mentioned sex, money, power, progress, class, and politics. Art can be and has been about all these things. But they all have something in common since they stem from the same source; ego. Do you deny that? If you do, how is art a special or different category? How does art have nothing to do with ego?<br /><br />Also, what is "spiritual uplift"? How do you define spirituality? Most people equate it with happiness but happiness is just an emotion. There can be no happiness without an ego.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-33609065740456315552009-04-27T10:31:00.000-04:002009-04-27T10:31:00.000-04:00Rob, great post!
David, I would say that the succ...Rob, great post!<br /><br />David, I would say that the success of western philosophy is that it marries the ideal and the real, rather than just positing the ideal as the real and leaving reality to the goons, who eventually show up at the monastary door to ruin all the heedless bliss. The appreciation of the superimposition of the real and the ideal, substance and essence, is what leads to true knowledge of the world, and thus true progress... beneficial technology and self understanding. <br /><br />The ism prism is such a waste of time. Anonymous says its all about ego... oh, I thought it was all about sex. Wait, isn't it all about class? Or progress? Or master-slave relationships? Or enlightenment? Or the releasing of our mass and the return to stardust? Or the unconscious? Or the will to power? <br /><br />Isms are ideal categories, found lurking in everything. Selecting one out for apotheosis is silly. Just a mental choo choo to watch go round and round the track, hypnotizing us. <br /><br />The idea that art is all about ego is nonsense, just like saying art is all about sex, money, or all about power, or all about class, politics, the "act of making" and all the rest of it. Isms are a refuge from complexity. <br /><br />In fact, to the contrary, I would say it is those pseuds with their isms which purport to "explain everything" that have the real ego problems. The need to insist on one's pure rationalizations as having some unassailable value, is the cause of much trouble in the world, if not most. It would be so much better if Ismists dropped their egotism and recognized their fixations as the mantras of zealotry they are.<br /><br />Howard Pyle taught his students "to render service to the majesty of simple things." That is, to elevate the limpid truth to the epic, demonstrating by analogy the innate heroism of the ordinary moment, and thereby lifting the spirits of their fellow men. I would posit that the lifting of the spirit is a very useful service indeed. And, maybe I'm nuts, but I see generosity and spiritual uplift as the antidote to ego, rather than the cause or effect of it.<br /><br />kevkev ferraranoreply@blogger.com