tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post3383891983398738864..comments2024-03-28T05:04:06.624-04:00Comments on ILLUSTRATION ART: CHAINED TO THE GOAT-GOD OF ARTDavid Apatoffhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comBlogger213125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-54370488419379201182010-05-28T07:20:00.265-04:002010-05-28T07:20:00.265-04:00Thanks, D.H. and Leibesreime-- believe me, I lack ...Thanks, D.H. and Leibesreime-- believe me, I lack the heart or the aptitude for censorship. I'm glad to hear that you continued to read this stuff after I stopped.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-45867247098371167792010-05-26T20:20:48.794-04:002010-05-26T20:20:48.794-04:00Rob, you have a new, more virile profile image, ho...Rob, you have a new, more virile profile image, how cool! It makes you seem like a war hero pilot, strong and intelligent! younger.<br />good choice :-)))StimmeDesHerzenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15084934926989805342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-7704730762372025802010-05-26T20:05:11.169-04:002010-05-26T20:05:11.169-04:00Re: "this blog is not a polite salon or a gra...Re: "this blog is not a polite salon or a graduate school seminar but a place next to the railroad tracks where weeds and wildflowers can grow side by side."<br />A seminar would be so great, it is problematic for me to remember/keep straight all the artists you have mentioned here (Ok perhaps I should start taking notes! its not too late!!)<br />...to hear your stream of insight is something so enriching. ... so often it has struck me like being at a fine party in New York city, an existance so different and distant from mine here in Santa Cruz, a surf town! I wish you could have a party...where it would be possible to meet the usual dudes here who are so witty and erudite, most of the time, that is~ But your image of meeting at the RR tracks with weeds and wildflowers~ you speak with images that are as fine as the drawings shown here...<br /><br />please don't moderate, then there could be spaces of time where there are no comments since you are at work etc, and really this spamming is sort of a rarity here methinks. The momentum might be impaired? Why overreact, like the political class is doing! Yuck!<br /><br />greetingsEinbildungskraftStimmeDesHerzenshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15084934926989805342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-18066431812446886182010-05-25T22:57:36.374-04:002010-05-25T22:57:36.374-04:00Enough with Giles Goat Barth.Enough with Giles Goat Barth.Rob Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07587811799010051018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-77333842209559468842010-05-25T20:32:15.381-04:002010-05-25T20:32:15.381-04:00Jesus H, is this pathetic 'informed' drive...Jesus H, is this pathetic 'informed' drivel ever going to end?Antoninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-33710925481672962422010-05-25T16:40:26.497-04:002010-05-25T16:40:26.497-04:00..Wow what a post! i rank it right there with the .....Wow what a post! i rank it right there with the last episode of "V" and "Community",<br /><br />..censorship is not cool,<br />i enjoy the banter.. <br />i hope nobody is really getting their feelings hurt..<br />..i wonder if i offend b. sack will he google and review me!?.. i'm about due for a harsh critique,<br /><br />..the on topic stuff was nice too..some like it tight, some like it loose, i like the combo,<br /><br />on a side note..is there a thread previously posted here about the pros/cons of projectors?<br />p.e.a.c.e<br />D.H.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-70151902598889201202010-05-25T02:53:09.726-04:002010-05-25T02:53:09.726-04:00In Wyeth's case the older he got the more &quo...In Wyeth's case the older he got the more "savage" he indeed seem to become - painting a dead road-kill squirrel and dipping his thumb in it's blood to smear into the painting , who the hell does that?!<br /><br /> Some of the best books of his later work are Wondrous Strange and Memory and Magic - did either of you see his retrospective in Philly ?<br /><br /> That example of his process (bowl of paint on near finished piece) and Frazetta's Cat Girl , where he painted out some incredibly well rendered cats to simplify the composition , as well as Kanevsky , who may paint 30 figures , one over the previous with the layers projecting through to achieve the final layer , are examples I think of when I get too precious about something i'm working on .<br /><br /> Al McLuckieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-57551122656470801512010-05-25T00:26:09.992-04:002010-05-25T00:26:09.992-04:00A number of years ago, the Fogg museum at Harvard ...A number of years ago, the Fogg museum at Harvard had a wide-ranging show of Andrew Wyeth's work. I was never terribly impressed with his work until that show, which contained wonderful, silvery drawings and numerous studies he had done in what he referred to as drybrush. The effects were different from the traditional drybrush technique. Wyeth's approach was very suave and not at all obvious.<br /><br />I was also taken with his control of color. I kept going back and developed a deep respect for that master. I have not seen reproductions of much of the work in that show.Rob Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07587811799010051018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-14735144902314969762010-05-24T21:45:59.473-04:002010-05-24T21:45:59.473-04:00Al, I've heard that great story about Wyeth to...Al, I've heard that great story about Wyeth too, and I think his work became much stronger as he became more savage. Works such as Christina's world have a scary intensity but I prefer his later work where you can see the vigorous brush strokes and spatters.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-50459479244161623842010-05-24T14:09:05.111-04:002010-05-24T14:09:05.111-04:00Andrew Wyeth and his father N.C. and son James are...Andrew Wyeth and his father N.C. and son James are among my favorite artists - just had a 3 generation Wyeth show where I live and Victoria Wyeth described a common practice of her grandfather Andrew . He might have spent 3 to 5 months on a tempera , and with it being 85 to 90 percent completed , hurl a bowl of pigment on it and run from the room in horror . After the mess dried he would rescue the piece explaining that he had ruined pieces doing this , bur that when he made it work , it had a quality that he could never have achieved by playing it safe .<br /><br /> Al McLuckieAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-57373459047069143692010-05-24T13:37:23.785-04:002010-05-24T13:37:23.785-04:00Rob, good luck to your nephew.Rob, good luck to your nephew.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-60278396685341676672010-05-24T12:43:51.119-04:002010-05-24T12:43:51.119-04:00>>> That has a way of reminding you of th...>>> That has a way of reminding you of the chaos waiting for you beneath that thin veneer of order and stability. I am a huge fan of Bernard Knox, whose writings about the Greeks are pure gems. He once said something along the lines of, "If you have to go out and kill the family pet with your own hands in order to eat dinner, it keeps you from getting overly civilized."<<<<br /><br />I just said something similar to my nephew who is shipping out to Afghanistan...Morality is flexible and subject to fashion. What civilized 21st century civilian westerners think of as correct morality would be incomprehensible to many people in other parts of the globe...especially those enjoying the natural and organic benefits of a 15th century lifestyle with the added spice of tribalism thrown in.<br /><br />When he gets there, he will be using the appropriate yardstick for measuring the reality of Afghanistan, not the yardstick of the suburban malls and worries about our diets.<br /><br />He is about to experience the ephemeral nature of civilization as he ventures into a realm that has always defined life on this planet. Social constructs are just that...constructions subject to modification or dismantling.Rob Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07587811799010051018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-89955699318588825452010-05-24T08:11:18.632-04:002010-05-24T08:11:18.632-04:00Joss-- I, too, am grateful for the artists that Ke...Joss-- I, too, am grateful for the artists that Kev brings to the table. (Like you, I was not familiar with Carolyn Anderson-- she is an excellent example for our discussion in that she achieves sensitive expressions using chaotic brush strokes, although personally I think she would be a better artist if she lost some of that white frosting that she dollops so liberally on everything) <br /><br />You also write: "There's a lot on this blog about the lost glory days which I fully agree with, but there is something about the internet age that seems equally as valuable," I doubt there is anyone here who would disagree with you about the great aspects of the internet age. I'm sure there isn't a single era for which you couldn't make a "best of all times/worst of all times" argument but I feel quite fortunate to be living today.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-56751358018292690122010-05-24T07:57:04.174-04:002010-05-24T07:57:04.174-04:00Tom quotes Alexander Tzonis's Classical Greek ...Tom quotes Alexander Tzonis's Classical Greek Architecture, The Construction of the Modern, about a transformation in Greek architecture: <br />" Joseph Hoffer describe them "as results of a conscious effort to avoid the rectilinear and infuse the lifeless forms of art with a breath of living nature"<br /><br />Tom, obviously I should have read Tzoni before volunteering my previous opinion about Greek architecture, but thanks for a nifty quote. These theories come together so neatly, it's almost as if we need an element of chaos to shake them up.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-78370815950717488832010-05-24T07:48:51.910-04:002010-05-24T07:48:51.910-04:00Kev Ferrara said: "Andrew Minewski... would s...Kev Ferrara said: "Andrew Minewski... would say, "yes, it is very easy to make a wild and energetic brushstroke... the difficult thing is to control it!"<br /><br />Excellent!<br /><br />Rob Howard said: "Only twelve more messages and David will have reached a record of 200."<br /><br />Personally, I am ready to re-start the clock at 200 and forget everything that went before.<br /><br />Tax paying artist wrote: "So David, would you be in general agreement with the view that the art of the Hellenistic period was a meeting of the two ways?"<br /><br />Tax paying artist, I don't know nearly as much about Hellenistic art as I should. You don't see a whole lot of the wild side in their architecture, which was one of the most important manifestations of their aesthetic theories about archetypes. But from my limited perspective, the answer is "yes." And it's not surprising-- even while they searched for the "ideal" earlier and harder than anybody else, they still lived every day in perpetual peril from foreign and domestic enemies. That has a way of reminding you of the chaos waiting for you beneath that thin veneer of order and stability. I am a huge fan of Bernard Knox, whose writings about the Greeks are pure gems. He once said something along the lines of, "If you have to go out and kill the family pet with your own hands in order to eat dinner, it keeps you from getting overly civilized."David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-40837373419118740922010-05-24T07:14:30.017-04:002010-05-24T07:14:30.017-04:00I have been avoiding this neighborhood recently an...I have been avoiding this neighborhood recently and was pleasantly surprised to see the path this conversation has taken. Sorry to be late in returning to the party.<br /><br />Tom, I was able to track down Bernini's bust and sketch of Scipione on line, and enjoyed them both. The contrast between the mediums (dense, brittle marble of the statue vs. the light, fluid line of the sketch) is as fruitful as the difference we've been discussing between careful realism and spontaneous, slapdash images. <br /><br />Etc. etc. wrote: "I just noticed your examples are pen and ink. Regarding paintings, could you perhaps offer some examples that you feel do not quite make it (i.e. not enough Bacchanalian frenzy) as well as others that just do make it? "<br /><br />Etc. etc., as I thought about paintings energized by "controlled frenzy," I remembered <a href="http://illustrationart.blogspot.com/2007/03/those-little-moments-of-freedom.html" rel="nofollow">this post from years ago</a>. There are obviously a lot of abstract gestural paintings of the 20th century (Kline, Pollock) but short of that, there were a lot of painters (such as Boldini suggested by Anonymous or the artists suggested by Kev) whose loose, energetic brush strokes dominate representational paintings. Turner is one of my very favorites, and he frequently danced on the boundary between order and chaos.David Apatoffhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11293486149879229016noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-14197023277021973992010-05-24T03:49:32.878-04:002010-05-24T03:49:32.878-04:00I said
"but hopefully by someone with somethi...I said<br />"but hopefully by someone with something in their sack!"<br /><br />Or a woman...as they don't seem to have the need to prove themselves nearly so much as the men.<br /><br />The concept of penis envy always struck me as the ridiculous creation of one very insecure male.Josshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18396610569402016319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-22423035976456315512010-05-24T03:40:59.249-04:002010-05-24T03:40:59.249-04:00Kev, I can't decide if your crazy yourself for...Kev, I can't decide if your crazy yourself for being so patient to reply to the haters or if your generosity is just beyond my comprehension.<br /><br />But I digress, I wanted to say,<br /><br />thank you for bringing us back to my biggest reason for being here, which is to discover and rediscover artists I love, and if I'm lucky enjoy some stimulating dialogue thereabouts. <br /><br />Carolyn Anderson: I was very happy to discover her, ( I'd never heard of her before). The google image search led me to <a href="http://www.paintblog.ca" rel="nofollow">paintblog.com<br /></a>which was for me a treasure trove of undiscovered contemporary painters. Some real gems in my opinion. What strikes me is how there's so many people out there painting in ways that I <i>have</i> conceived of and it's so satisfying to see it because I could never have realized all those visions in one lifetime(let alone even one cohesive vision). And of course there's infinitely more artists doing amazing things I would never have considered in a million years.<br /><br />There's a lot on this blog about the lost glory days which I fully agree with, but there is something about the internet age that seems equally as valuable. I'm probably gonna get hated for that comment, but hopefully by someone with something in their sack!Josshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18396610569402016319noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-42448856201506855172010-05-24T01:17:40.949-04:002010-05-24T01:17:40.949-04:00So David, would you be in general agreement with t...So David, would you be in general agreement with the view that the art of the Hellenistic period was a meeting of the two ways?Tax paying artistnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-86289973432473556012010-05-23T22:32:11.727-04:002010-05-23T22:32:11.727-04:00B. Sack... it does matter to me what you think of ...B. Sack... it does matter to me what you think of my work. If somebody appreciates what I put my heart and soul into, that is the person I did the work for. I am trying to communicate with "other souls" as the saying goes.<br /><br />Following your praise I was really disturbed by your comments about hating. Hating says more about your soul than mine and I would reconsider how easily you throw that word around.<br /><br />Best<br />kevkev ferrarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09509572970616136990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-88840824833924320722010-05-23T22:25:13.750-04:002010-05-23T22:25:13.750-04:00Steve, agree about Boldoni, I would add Kanevsky, ...Steve, agree about Boldoni, I would add Kanevsky, Fechin, Frazetta, Lucian Freud, Leroy Neiman, Oleg Stavrowsky, late Remington, John LaGatta, Carolyn Anderson, Brangwyn prior to 1930 or so, and the early robust work of N.C. Wyeth before he was influenced by the regionalists.<br /><br />The line I've heard about this type of virtuosic work is (second hand) from an Art Student's League instructor named Andrew Minewski. He would say, "yes, it is very easy to make a wild and energetic brushstroke... the difficult thing is to control it!"kev ferrarahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09509572970616136990noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-80751661953035193432010-05-23T22:00:15.479-04:002010-05-23T22:00:15.479-04:00Not a bad guess, Antoni, but my guess would be sel...Not a bad guess, Antoni, but my guess would be self-described "Canada's Most Prolific Watercolorist," Peter Schmid with his page http://www.petersart.ca/StudioProducts.htm sounding very much like the jilted lover we read in many of the anonymous posts. The other would be Miles William Mathis at http://mileswmathis.com. Mathis remains upset when I noticed that a true triptych is more than a single picture with doors on the side. Schmid is just flat-out pathetic.<br /><br />A wise man noted that the risk of insult is the price of clarity, thus mentioning the fact that a triptych usually consists of three separate works of art was taken as an insult. As for Schmid, the mere exitence of artistic competence is an insult.Rob Howardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07587811799010051018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-88790737289162555732010-05-23T21:06:49.417-04:002010-05-23T21:06:49.417-04:00Consensus among us who travel the art forums when ...Consensus among us who travel the art forums when this bullshit at David's is mentioned, is that the Anonymous Mystery Guest is either Graydon Parish or Richard Murdock maybe both. If by the off chance you're not, you sure are adding to their good name. WTG<br /><br />This makes it 191. Only a few more posts before disrespecting David ends.btw Antoninoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-72787506326088228272010-05-23T20:57:18.621-04:002010-05-23T20:57:18.621-04:00[i]I just noticed your examples are pen and ink. R...[i]I just noticed your examples are pen and ink. Regarding paintings, could you perhaps offer some examples that you feel do not quite make it (i.e. not enough Bacchanalian frenzy) as well as others that just do make it? Just curious as to where you feel the threshold is.[/i]<br /><br />I'd nominate some of Boldinis work for this.<br /><br />Some of his painted sketches are skating around that order / chaos thing.<br /><br />-SteveAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12189014.post-32213791330723599692010-05-23T20:35:49.674-04:002010-05-23T20:35:49.674-04:00"A skillful picture will often allocate space..."A skillful picture will often allocate space for an uncontrolled splatter or eruption or a rough line-- not enough to lose control of the picture, but just enough to say that wildness plays a role in the pantheon"<br /><br />David,<br />I just noticed your examples are pen and ink. Regarding paintings, could you perhaps offer some examples that you feel do not quite make it (i.e. not enough Bacchanalian frenzy) as well as others that just do make it? Just curious as to where you feel the threshold is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com